Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

In fact, I vote for level loss on death.

Would be hilarious to watch you fail to get past 95 and begging for carries.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Because you died and lost EXP, that is why he's 97, which is also the point of the whole discussion, yet you felt the need to swoop in here with "git gud" comments. Stop acting disingenuous about it; you know exactly what the issue is we are talking about.

Nah, i was 97 cus i didn't need to push 100. 3 points would change nothing on the build perfoprmance. It was finished at 94 or 95
I see you're a special case of head up... But looking at your profile no wonder
There is no issue, only 1:
In this case issue is the OP. He doesn't want to watch, read blah blah about the game but wants 100 with his probably shit build that can barely clear yellows in poe 1. Yeah... git gud or go play diablo it's casual enough

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Arcturus_Blake#6989 wrote:

3 points would change nothing on the build perfoprmance.

So, what you are saying is: the mechanic does nothing but waste your time, right? Since builds are typically fully online around lvl 95? I think you finally figured it out, then.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Arcturus_Blake#6989 wrote:

3 points would change nothing on the build perfoprmance.

So, what you are saying is: the mechanic does nothing but waste your time, right? Since builds are typically fully online around lvl 95? I think you finally figured it out, then.

Well it does serve a purpose. You guys just refuse to understand it.

It shows the player the way of the natural progression. Choose your difficulty where you do not die over and over again.

Why do they insist on not following the games natural progression and improve their character or lower the difficulty if they reach a point where they keep dying? If they do, the XP penalty does not effect them.

That's the issue. Players just want to skip the natural progression and get cranky when they fail.

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TheRealKraggy#0533 wrote:

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

So what was your goal with PoE?

PoE1 was modelled on Diablo 2, D2 had XP loss so PoE1 has it.

PoE2 is modelled on PoE1, PoE1 has xp loss so PoE2 has it.

That's all you need to know to understand why it's a thing in PoE2.

Because some obsolete thing was in Diablo 2, is it mandatory to be in PoE?
Tetris inventory was also in Diablo II; it was irritating there and is irritating in here.
PoE2 was a great opportunity to get rid of it finally, but they decided to keep it probably because "D2 has it"
It was a stupid idea then, and it is stupid now.
And for all "you need to have XP loss, or you do not lose nothing when dying", you lose time, and any resources used.

XP loss idea is even more ridiculous now with the checkpoint system, where you lose your actual progress in the content.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

How many people quit the game because of dying or had at least crap moments, stress and even anger issues VS people who would quit after removing the death penalty?

YESS THIS GAME MADE ME MORE ANGRY AND STRESSED OUT THAN ANY DARK SOULS. AND ITS REAAALY NOT FUN WITH ONE MAP TRY. MAYBE FOR YOUTUBERS OR STREAMERS SITTING 15H/24H WITH EQ WORH 1000DIVS.I JUST WANT TO PLAY, LOOT DROP, KILL BOSSES, MAYBE DIE AND TRY AGAIN. IF I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY HC I WOULD GO PLAY HC! THAT MECHANIC WITH LOSING EVERYTHING ON DEATH MADE ME QUIT. game for masochists sitting 16hours per day and for people who like when someone is spitting in their face. AND dont write go play diablo becouse its like mobile game. poe2 is really cool until maps. AND RNG WITH CITADELS AND MANY OTHERS THINGS I HATE IN "ENDGAME"


EDIT: DOING ACT3 MORE THAN 2 TIMES IS PAIN IN THE BACK. WHEN I WANT MAKE NEW CHARACTER AND IMAGINE GOING THROUGH ACT3 AGAIN I HEAVE POST-TRAUMA STRESS AND I GIVE UP INSTANTLY(i made it 6 times)

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Well it does serve a purpose. You guys just refuse to understand it.

It shows the player the way of the natural progression. Choose your difficulty where you do not die over and over again.

Nope. What's happening here is that you keep using that hypothetical scenario you made up in your head as some kind of be-all end-all argument. You have literally ignored every single post so far that was talking about dying to things that aren't your fault and still getting punished for it.

Every time this is brought up again, you flip a switch and go back to this "difficulty check" nonsense that you keep repeating. All the while not realising that having to "play it safe" is exactly why this mechanic is utter garbage. In a vacuum, this argument never makes any sense to begin with, because what you are telling the player is to never take any risks at all, which is a direct contradiction of the power fantasy that drives this genre to begin with. If the player should never take any risks, why should they bother with overcoming an obstacle?

And before you flip that argument on its head again to use it against me: No, having an on-death EXP penalty does not achieve that effect by having your "EXP at risk"; the punishment is more severe than failure. Dying 50x to the same boss isn't the issue here. In your head, doing this is "too difficult content" - have you ever stopped to think that some things are just simply... meant to be difficult? If your goal is to trivialise any encounter before you engage with it, maybe you shouldn't be talking about appropriate punishment to begin with, don't you think.

You cannot apply Souls difficulty logic here (what you seem to be doing), either, because you get to try a boss for as long as you like, until you beat it. In PoE, you have to grind for hours to find a fragment, grind out an entire set, and then you get 1 attempt and you lose everything when you die, including the one steady bit of progress you have made thus far: EXP.

Why do you keep insisting on doing content with higher difficulty than your character is currently fit to do? And when you fail expect to be rewarded for it?

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Nope. What's happening here is that you keep using that hypothetical scenario you made up in your head as some kind of be-all end-all argument. You have literally ignored every single post so far that was talking about dying to things that aren't your fault and still getting punished for it.

I have already acknowledged multiple times in this thread that there are some unfair one shot mechanics in the game currently. The correct way to handle this is to fix those. Not to remove the XP penalty. Dying to one of these unfair one shots from time to time will not prevent you from leveling. It will just take you some maps longer. There are not that many of those left in the game by now. Some have already been addressed.

Furthermore, many players think that a death is due to one of those unfair mechanics but in fact if you really look at the death it was either lacking defense or a misunderstanding of a mechanic. Like trying to block ground effects.

If you insist that you die all the time to only those unfair one shots, then I can guarantee that you also wrongfully attribute some deaths to those one shots when there is another reason for them. And here we are again at the point where many players have the misconception that they are the top god gamer who never makes mistakes and it always has to be the games fault.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Every time this is brought up again, you flip a switch and go back to this "difficulty check" nonsense that you keep repeating. All the while not realising that having to "play it safe" is exactly why this mechanic is utter garbage. In a vacuum, this argument never makes any sense to begin with, because what you are telling the player is to never take any risks at all, which is a direct contradiction of the power fantasy that drives this genre to begin with. If the player should never take any risks, why should they bother with overcoming an obstacle?

This is not Dark Souls. Games like PoE revolve around improving your character. Strong Character > Skill. Except for maybe bosses. There are some bosses that can be defeated by pure skill. But certainly not maps, where you have hundreds of projectiles flying around.

And for the thousands time. You are free to take any risk you want. Just don't expect to be rewarded for failing.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

And before you flip that argument on its head again to use it against me: No, having an on-death EXP penalty does not achieve that effect by having your "EXP at risk"; the punishment is more severe than failure. Dying 50x to the same boss isn't the issue here. In your head, doing this is "too difficult content" - have you ever stopped to think that some things are just simply... meant to be difficult? If your goal is to trivialise any encounter before you engage with it, maybe you shouldn't be talking about appropriate punishment to begin with, don't you think.

Yes, pinnacle bosses are meant to be difficult. Not basic farming. Do you expect to break your leg 1 in 4 times going grocery shopping? No, because it is a basic thing you do to get the food you need. Same with farming in maps. You are not supposed to die that often in maps. How is that so hard to understand?

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

You cannot apply Souls difficulty logic here (what you seem to be doing), either, because you get to try a boss for as long as you like, until you beat it. In PoE, you have to grind for hours to find a fragment, grind out an entire set, and then you get 1 attempt and you lose everything when you die, including the one steady bit of progress you have made thus far: EXP.

We are talking about constantly dying in maps. Not bosses.

Also I don't know what you mean with "apply Souls difficulty logic". The logic I apply is that games like PoE evolve around improving your character. The stronger you make your character the harder content you can farm and the more efficient you can farm. Having a strong character is almost always more important than being a skilled player for mapping. Which makes sense because when there are hundreds of enemies on your screen, shooting projectiles, leaping at you ... there simply is absolutely no way to dodge every single one of those attacks. So you have to build a character that can tank some of those and then be able to replenish lost Life/ES/Mana in order to sustain the incoming damage.

I would argue that it is the opposite in a game like Dark Souls. So either I misunderstand what you mean with Souls difficulty logic or you misunderstood me.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Why do you keep insisting on doing content with higher difficulty than your character is currently fit to do? And when you fail expect to be rewarded for it?

Oh, so losing everything including EXP and wanting that EXP loss removed somehow translates for you into "expect to be rewarded for it"? What on earth are you even on about anymore. Just going in circles, babbling about the same thing in every reply. At this point I'm convinced you are just here for the arguments and don't want them to stop. That's why you keep going back.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

I have already acknowledged multiple times in this thread that there are some unfair one shot mechanics in the game currently.

Dude, for the n-th time: nobody gives a shit about one-shots. They do not form the basis for wanting the EXP penalty removed. How many times do we have to repeat this. Stop. Projecting. Your. Made. Up. Scenario. You still haven't acknowledged how dying to random bugs and having hours of progress wiped is somehow a reason for why it needs to stay. Please explain what glorious purpose that bestows upon us.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

This is not Dark Souls. Games like PoE revolve around improving your character.

And Dark Souls isn't? Not every player starts out as a SL1 speed runner, you know. The core concept is still to improve your character, be it through skill and/or power-ups.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

And for the thousands time. You are free to take any risk you want. Just don't expect to be rewarded for failing.

WHAT IS REWARDING ABOUT NOT WANTING MY EXP WIPED ON DEATH.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Yes, pinnacle bosses are meant to be difficult. Not basic farming. Do you expect to break your leg 1 in 4 times going grocery shopping? No, because it is a basic thing you do to get the food you need. Same with farming in maps. You are not supposed to die that often in maps. How is that so hard to understand?

You consistently bring the absolute worst examples to the table. Where are Pinnacle Bosses now coming from? Did you see me mention those? And that analogy sucks.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

We are talking about constantly dying in maps. Not bosses.

Nope. YOU are. Everybody else is talking about how annoying it is to lose EXP on death.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

The stronger you make your character the harder content you can farm and the more efficient you can farm.

Yes, it's perfectly clear you have never played a Souls game.

Anyhow, happy new year. I'm done with responding to the same bad takes over and over.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Why do you keep insisting on doing content with higher difficulty than your character is currently fit to do? And when you fail expect to be rewarded for it?

BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE FUN IS!!!
Beating content my character is geared and leveled to consistently defeat is boring.

I don't expect or want to be rewarded for FAILING the content.
I DO want to be rewarded for CLEARING the content.

You keep on comparing this game to Path of Exile:
This is a different game with different design goals.

Player skill should be at least as much of a factor in clearing content as character gear and builds are. The player skill is acquired by failing. The more you fail, the better you become. "If at first you don't succeed, Die, Die, Again!"


It sounds like you really like Path of Exile. Great - that game still exists for you. Run all the maps you want without dying and slowly building your character.

This game is for those who want to face a challenge.

The entire dev presentation for the endgame is about managing risk vs reward: How hard will you make the maps, how far will you keep going in the challenges? Death penalties negate all of that once the reward isn't worth the risk.

But thank for you continuing to engage with this topic and keeping it squarely in view.