Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

Experience Loss is a pivotal game mechanic whether it stays 10%, lowers to 5% or is raised to 15%.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Why are you so stuck on the idea that you have to run maps on a difficulty where you keep dying? There is such a wide range of difficulty to choose from. Why not follow the natural character progression? If the XP loss is discouraging playing above your characters capabilities, then good! It is working as expected. Because it is not part of the natural progression to keep dying over and over again. Dying should be discouraged. So it is working as intended.

The only thing that xp loss on death is discouraging is dying itself, and the message it sends is don't do content you will die in at all ever until you are level 100. Fear and avoidance of playing the game in a fun way does not make a good game, and it will 100% drive away and potential success for this game. The "natural progression" for people is not natural at all for casual play, its getting to maps, and then pushing the same button until you hit level 100, and then continuing past the first level of maps.

[Removed by Support] they seriously need to get rid of XP loss on death. It's an incredibly stupid and archaic mechanic that shouldn't be in the game. It's just awful game design.

I'm fine with the XP loss if MF wasn't the only way to play and the god F'in awful map sustain. D4 got so much hate for nightmare dungeon sigil sustain and rightfully so.

If they want to keep cheesy one shot death mechanics from ultra zoomed in view and no way to turn down the effects to see what killed you AND penalize me with XP loss, lose my map and all modifiers. At least drop some high tier maps. Why am I getting tier 5 maps in a tier 15?

I'm so bored with this lame end game, might have to check back in a year see if they change anything.

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Manocean#0852 wrote:

Experience Loss is a pivotal game mechanic whether it stays 10%, lowers to 5% or is raised to 15%.

There's also the option of:

Softcore ( no punishment at all, let people just chill )
Standard ( the current state for whoever likes a bit of a challenge )
Hardcore ( your typical hardcore )

As a proposal.

And everyone is happy and can play their own "version" of the game as they see fit to their way of life.

Why simply limit it to "lose xp" & "hardcore" when you can also cater to the absolute casuals? It's a win in my opinion from all perspectives. More people happy, bigger player base, more diverse opinions and feedback overall throughout the rest of the games expansion & eventually more cash in the pocket I suppose.

Why does it have to be "either this, or that", I don't understand?

Pretty much everyone is super fixated on "fighting" unfortunately defending their case and trying to prove points for their "team", when in fact both sides are correct in their own way.

And fyi before everyone starts to jump me, I'd be playing Standard ( so the current system is pretty much ok with me ) because I like a challenge but I'm not really built for hardcore, I just understand why all the frustration about the xp loss as well... :) .

So the solution is always somewhere in the middle, but that's up to GGG to decide at the end of the day.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

The XP penalty serves a very important purpose and must not be removed.

It disincentivizes players to just mindlessly bash their heads against the wall and die over and over in content their character is not yet fit to play.

When you reach a point in an ARPG where you keep dying, the game is trying to tell you that your character is too weak for that kind of content. It is an obstacle that is presented to you to overcome. It is part of the progression of an ARPG.

In PoE especially the player can choose the difficulty of the content 100%. You choose the waystone/map tier, you choose the affixes of the waystone/map, you choose the additional content you do. Each of these things make the map harder or easier depending on your decision.

In my case for example. My build was able to clear the map tiers relatively safe up to tier 15. But when I opened a breach in tier 15 I was at risk of becoming overrun. Since my first priority was the Atlas passive points I simply avoided additional map content until I finished my 6 tier 15 maps. This way I was able to keep the difficulty in an area where I felt comfortable. My decision. Now that I have all Atlas passive points but my character is still not as strong I simply run tier 13 maps but can do all additional content in them without too much risk.

For some strange reason people nowadays are under the misconception that it is always the games fault. When in fact they simply do not want to look how to overcome an obstacle that is part of the natural progression. Most players have that typical LoL or WoW mentality of "I am the god gamer. It is my teammates fault that I do not reach diamond/Gladiator. I could reach that rank easily if I would not be kept down by others."

In PoE 1 this was mostly avoided because the requirements for build guides became so high, that basically every starter build had to be able to clear the campaign naked, finish the Atlas in blue items, be an excellent bosser and be able to do every league mechanic. In PoE 2 the knowledge simply is not yet there to do this. So we are back at the "work on your character" state.

If you die the simple fact is that it was your bad decision making. Except of some unfair one shots, which GGG already started to address and will continue to improve.

+1 but people think blasting t15-16 juiced with some of the deadliest mods is suppose to be normal and that they shouldn't be dying from this.. lmao how wrong could they be?

Every person who complains about dying isn't dying 1 out of ever 15 or 10 or 5 for that matter they're probably dying every other map.

If you die 3 times out of 5 times in any tier you should either look at the mods you're running or go down a tier.
Generally it isn't even the tier that is the issue it is the modifiers you're running that make the map deadly.

Death Penalty is there so you learn. As a matter of fact start by being humble because on Path of Exile (especially 2) you cannot afford the luxury of being complacent right at endgame.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Oh, so losing everything including EXP and wanting that EXP loss removed somehow translates for you into "expect to be rewarded for it"?

Yes. Because if you die and you do not lose XP and instead keep it, you are basically rewarded with XP for/despite dying.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Dude, for the n-th time: nobody gives a shit about one-shots.
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You still haven't acknowledged how dying to random bugs and having hours of progress wiped is somehow a reason for why it needs to stay.

You are correct. I did forget about random bugs. Can you please elaborate on these bugs? I don't know of any and have not encountered any that would kill my character so far.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

And Dark Souls isn't?

I have played Dark Souls and I personally did not encounter hard gear checks like they exist in games like PoE.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

We are talking about constantly dying in maps. Not bosses.

Nope. YOU are. Everybody else is talking about how annoying it is to lose EXP on death.

Yes. But how are you losing XP? Because you die in maps. If you do not die, there is no XP penalty.

I have thought about what I wrote and came to the conclusion that I did not explain well. I am sorry for that. I will try to do better. Maybe we can find common ground.

The XP penalty is mostly effecting players who keep dying over and over in maps and therefor cannot progress in levels. If they are not dying they are not losing XP.

For me the most important question therefor is what type of deaths are players experiencing in Maps and what would the solution to these deaths be?

1) Bugs - I am not aware of any, but some players say there are bugs causing unfair deaths. Not much the player can do. Solution: GGG fixes the bugs.

2) Unfair one shot mechanics. GGG has already started improving on them. By now, for my personal taste, there are almost no extreme one shot mechanics left that would cause you to die constantly. Maybe once now and then, but not enough to prevent leveling. Here the player could only try to play extra carefully and look specifically for the worst offenders. Maybe this way some deaths can be prevented. Solution: GGG improves on one shots.

3) The player gets overrun with mobs. This can easily happen in Breach or Ritual since a lot of monsters are spawning next to the player. This is a simple gear check. The character has to do enough damage to kill the monsters quickly or have enough defense to be able to tank a lot of monsters at the same time. Solution: Improve gear or lower difficulty.

4) Constant incoming damage. Mostly due to the large number of monsters in the map, shooting projectiles, leap attacks, ground effects and so on. This is a simple gear check. The character needs enough defenses to avoid, mitigate and recover more damage than the character is taking because it is simply impossible to avoid everything. Solution: Improve gear or lower difficulty.

5) Misunderstanding of mechanics. Like trying to block ground effects, or not knowing that bombs thrown by enemies can shotgun, using Chaos Inoculation with a mana flask that removes life on use. Things like these are basically just experience. There is not really much that can be done, other then, when a player dies they ask the question "How did I die?" and look for answers to build up that experience. Solution: Try to find out why your character died.

6) Getting hit by telegraphed hard hitting attacks/spells. Many regular enemies have attacks or spells that hit very hard and should be avoided by the player. Or for example these white exploding balls from Expedition or the purple plants. Solution: Avoid/Dodge these attacks/spells or improve gear to a point where the character does not get one shot by these or lower difficulty.

Every death that I have encountered or have heard of so far, could be put into one of those six categories. 1 and 2 are on GGG's side and they are working on it. 5 is simply experience that is built over time. And for me the most common I have seen 3, 4 and 6 all can be avoided by improving the gear or lowering the difficulty or 6 also by playing better.

This is why I keep insisting on the point that everything about dying/losing XP comes down to the difficulty that the player selects and the current state/power level of their character.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Improve gear or lower difficulty.

Lowering difficulty means making the game easier for yourself.

You continue to see a player repeatedly dying as some great sin that the player must be dissuaded from. Why? How does it hurt the game for players to face challenges that require multiple deaths to overcome?

PoE 2 should be as much about player skill as it is about gear. The game should demand mastery of boss and mob mechanics that only happen after multiple deaths.

If you miss dodge rolls, if you don't move correctly, if you don't time your attacks properly, you should die. This assumes a "properly" geared and leveled character.

The problem with the XP (and other) death penalties is they prevent the devs from making a challenging game: With losing the map after your first death, you won't even have seen all of the boss (or rare mob) mechanics, and who knows when you'll face the boss again. The XP penalty ensures that you're constantly moving one step forward and three steps back.

And yes, I believe every endgame map should come with a realistic chance of death. If you're never dying to maps you're either an elite player, which the game should never be balanced around, or the content is simply too easy and a waste of time.

Leave that gameplay in Path of Exile, not PoE 2.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

You continue to see a player repeatedly dying as some great sin that the player must be dissuaded from. Why? How does it hurt the game for players to face challenges that require multiple deaths to overcome?

I give up. There is no clearer way how I can explain it.

There is nothing to overcome. No challenge. The reasons for death I listed for which the solution is lowering the difficulty or improving gear are simply hard equipment checks. There is nothing to be done with skill. Nothing to overcome.

You either have the minimum needed equipment or your character dies. These are the only two options for these types of deaths. That's it. Please read death 3 and 4 again.

How is it possible that you do not understand this?