Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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Bountak#7882 wrote:

I'm against the EXP penalty when dying because it makes the gum less fun.

It actually makes the game better, which is why it's in there, it's just a bit too indirect for you to see probably. Many such cases.

I never am expecting anyone to agree with this of course. It's very difficult to get anyone to ever admit they were wrong about something they have an emotional reaction to.

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Arcturus_Blake#6989 wrote:

Example my 97 hierro could do feared easy and it's only 97, why would i push for 100 when i had a good build going on?

Because you died and lost EXP, that is why he's 97, which is also the point of the whole discussion, yet you felt the need to swoop in here with "git gud" comments. Stop acting disingenuous about it; you know exactly what the issue is we are talking about.

I cleared The Feared, Uber Elder, Uber Atziri, Eater & Exarch, Maven and Sirus on this build. Basically everything but Ubers. Yet I had to wait for the level up before even giving it a shot, because it was my first time for some of them and I would not only have lost portals but also EXP. Which means the entire waiting game took even longer because I was unwilling to sacrifice several hours of grinding to take a risk. Which is the core of the entire problem being discussed here. It does nothing but waste your damn time. By the time EXP loss becomes really annoying, my build is already online.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

The core functionality of maps is to farm currency/items. That is why we run maps. That has nothing to do with being used to it or with an XP penalty. This is simply their purpose.

How can you not see what an empty, fallacious argument that is?

Maps are the endgame content. Trials and pinnacles being a small fraction. If they are not fun, the endgame is not fun. If they are just there to boringly grind, the game is a boring grind and why did GGG bother to try to make combat tactical and exciting?

You claim their purpose is only to farm currency because up to now that is all they have been good for, in your eyes.

So I ask, where does one get their XP? Maps.

Where are the interestimg endgame activities? Maps.

Where can I find loot other than currency? Maps.

Everything in the endgame revolves around maps yet you claim maps are only for safely farming currency. If I were to believe that I would stop playing right now because that is absolutely insanely boring game design.

XP loss massively discourages players from engaging in the available content. Hey look I found a coin! Oh well I'm not risking trying that. Hey look a Ritual! Screw that it might kill me.

The entire game becomes a risk avoidance where you are massively incentivised not to engage and not to play at a difficulty you enjoy but at a lower difficulty that is boringly safe.

That is not good dssign.

But it seems this is like arguing with someone suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. It doesn't matter how much you tell them their captor doesn't have their best interests at heart, that being free is the best way. They still see their imprisoner as their friend who they couldn't possibly manage without.

That was my logical argument. My more subjective and personal feelings are that this is very close to ruining the entire experience for me.

I am looking at my available waystones and for each one thinking 'Better not try that it might kill me'. I can't experiment with the different affixes. I don't want to try boosting maps with activities in them. I am sure as hell not doing Trials. Or Rituals. Or opening tough looking strongboxes.

The only time I can try those fun and challenging activities is right after I level. That means I am forced to do boring safe maps until I level. The gameplay suffers massively as a result.

It is fine to have a grind but if the gameplay during that grind is not fun and exciting then the game is unfun and boring.

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Orion_3T#5225 wrote:

I am looking at my available waystones and for each one thinking 'Better not try that it might kill me'. I can't experiment with the different affixes. I don't want to try boosting maps with activities in them. I am sure as hell not doing Trials. Or Rituals. Or opening tough looking strongboxes.

The only time I can try those fun and challenging activities is right after I level. That means I am forced to do boring safe maps until I level. The gameplay suffers massively as a result.

It is fine to have a grind but if the gameplay during that grind is not fun and exciting then the game is unfun and boring.

THIS!

I like to farm maps using T1 and with the resources I buy T15 maps.

Also I use it only on Sandspit maps because its safe and it will not come with a jester to one-hit kill me two screens away with an invisible spell. BTW 75% full resist and 4k hp and yet still suffering with hit kills. Resists should be reworked to actually resist because now feels like placebo.

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Orion_3T#5225 wrote:

How can you not see what an empty, fallacious argument that is?

Maps are the endgame content. Trials and pinnacles being a small fraction. If they are not fun, the endgame is not fun. If they are just there to boringly grind, the game is a boring grind and why did GGG bother to try to make combat tactical and exciting?

Why are you so stuck on the idea that you have to run maps on a difficulty where you keep dying? There is such a wide range of difficulty to choose from. Why not follow the natural character progression? If the XP loss is discouraging playing above your characters capabilities, then good! It is working as expected. Because it is not part of the natural progression to keep dying over and over again. Dying should be discouraged. So it is working as intended.

But if you insist you can still run maps where you keep dying. It is up to you. If that is fun for you, go ahead. It is your decision. You just cannot expect to keep leveling when doing it.

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Orion_3T#5225 wrote:

I am looking at my available waystones and for each one thinking 'Better not try that it might kill me'. I can't experiment with the different affixes. I don't want to try boosting maps with activities in them. I am sure as hell not doing Trials. Or Rituals. Or opening tough looking strongboxes.

The only time I can try those fun and challenging activities is right after I level. That means I am forced to do boring safe maps until I level. The gameplay suffers massively as a result.

It is fine to have a grind but if the gameplay during that grind is not fun and exciting then the game is unfun and boring.

You are arguing that the XP penalty is preventing you to do things you want to try out when it is not. You just seem not to understand that everything that adds content to a map or increases the loot on maps also increases the difficulty. If you want to try these things, do it on a waystone tier that is one or two levels lower.

As an example lets say your character can do tier y maps comfortably but is regularly dying in tier y+1 maps. Then you add some of the harder affixes to your waystone like reduced maximum player resistances and monster have extra damage as fire. This increases the difficulty of the map by a lot. If you try a tier y map with these affixes the logical outcome would be to die. Because you simply take so much more damage and were already at the limit of your characters capabilities at the current state. This is the logical expected outcome.

This effect is amplified if you took the atlas passives that increase the effect of waystone affixes.

Same thing with breach, ritual and delirium. These mechanics are designed to be harder because they add extra rewards to the map. So if you want to start a breach I would suggest to do it on a tier y-1 map. If you try it on tier y you most likely will be overrun and fail the map.

Balancing the difficulty of maps to fit the capabilities of your character is simply part of the game. So once again my question, why are you so stuck on the idea that you have to farm above the capabilities of your character?

The way I see it is that you keep bringing up false pseudo "arguments" to bring a wrong point across because you keep bashing your had into a wall on purpose and are not satisfied with the outcome. You simply refuse to follow the natural progression of the game and blame the game for it.

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nitefox1337#3569 wrote:

Without Level Loss, people who defend XP Loss with arguments like "Skills" and "Better Build", are hypocrites for these simple reason:

1.If you have so much skills, and you trust your build that much why don't you play hardcore then?

You want thrill? Go play Hardcore. You want meaning? Go play Hardcore. You have brutal ARPG skills? Go play Hardcore. Why the fck you bother legitimate complaints from casual players who don't give a fck about what you do, and just want to have fun playing the endgame?

2.There is no Level Loss. Without Level Loss, XP loss is just an obsolete Diablo 2 remnant mechanic to overcome with cheesy but boring tactics like Safe Farming for hours and wait to level up to test difficult stuff.

3.There are not one thread asking for Level Loss. All the people defending XP Loss here don't have the courage to ask for it, and yet here they are defending XP Loss because it's an easy mechanic to overcome if you have time to lose, but those who have a life can't afford.


XP Loss is just useless obsolete BS the devs keep because they can't grow pass their teenage Diablo 2 fanboy phase.

Couldn't have said it better myself +10000000000

It will never affect the people defending these pointless outdated mechanics if they're made optional. Or if they're removed. They can just go play hc then.

Exp loss serves 0 purpose in this game, its outdated and needs to be deleted. Fact.

And 1 portal per map also serves 0 purpose in this game, it is objectively bad game design and the game needs to allow Softcore players to use their 6 portals. Fact.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Exp loss serves 0 purpose in this game, its outdated and needs to be deleted. Fact.

Well it does serve a purpose. You guys just refuse to understand it.

Who is effected by XP loss? Players who keep dying over and over again.

Why keep players keep dying? Because they insist on playing on a difficulty that is too high for the current capabilities of their character. They try to skip the natural progression of the game.

Why do you insist on not following the games natural progression and improve their character or lower the difficulty if they reach a point where they keep dying? If they do, the XP penalty does not effect them.

In fact, I vote for level loss on death. Because the message to select a fitting difficulty is obviously not clear enough. Players have a huge range of difficulty to freely choose from. Selecting it too high and than complain about their bad decisions just makes no sense. Yet here we are.

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nitefox1337#3569 wrote:

2.There is no Level Loss. Without Level Loss, XP loss is just an obsolete Diablo 2 remnant mechanic to overcome with cheesy but boring tactics like Safe Farming for hours and wait to level up to test difficult stuff.

I would add that diablo actualy gave most of your experience back when you collected your corpse. POE is extra punishing because it does no such thing, it just takes it and tells you to go f yourself. (Along with your drops, your map, your bonuses and your emotional health)