From what we've seen so far, do you feel you're going to stay with PoE1 or move to PoE2?

"

the only reason I kept coming back was because there was not really any alternative.

Ha! Same...

"

Jitter912 wrote:

...
Relax the binary nature of their game. 0% resists sucks 75% is awesome and 40% is good and good ... is good.. and keeps you alive in a meaningful way. not 75% is good and everything else well you are dead. There should be character spectrum's not clones of the same all resistant to everything builds.

When every character can recover all of its HP in less than a second, generate infinite flask charges even against bosses, and achieve EHP levels in the hundreds of thousands if not millions...how do you suggest they 'relax the binary'? Any attack/mechanic/effect that doesn't kill you outright is entirely meaningless. half the map modifiers you're complaining about are there to chip away at the egregiously power-crept modifiers top-end builds can attain now and try to reduce their power without turning them off entirely - and people solve that by overgearing to the extent that even just twenty percent of their build's numerical power is enough to render everything that comes at them utterly irrelevant.

There is no "relax the binary" left in path the First. PoE2's slower, more measured and methodical design paradigm is required if one wants to have an actual back and forth with enemies where your resources matter, because in PoE1 all your resources are effectively infinite. The only way to challenge or threaten you is to prevent you from using your infinite resources entirely, through "one-shot" mechanics.

As someone who cannot achieve the sort of Ludicrous Speed-level scaling everyone else assumes is the baseline, I can guarantee you - when you do not have infinite resources, the game can become quite challenging indeed. Just not in a way that tends to be satisfying to overcome, unfortunately.

"

1453R wrote:

PoE2's slower, more measured and methodical design paradigm is required if one wants to have an actual back and forth with enemies where your resources matter, because in PoE1 all your resources are effectively infinite.

Yeah, here's the thing, though: it's the wrong genre for that. It's "hack & slash", not "Souls-like". The whole point of the genre is to progressively become a demigod and to decimate hordes of monsters, not dance around enemies and carefully manage your resources. That's what Souls-like Adventure RPGs are for.

And before you know it, we will have to gather sticks and rocks to make a campfire so that we can cook food and boil water to quench our Exile's hunger and thirst rate so they don't suffer from exhaustion (reduces maximum HP and Mana), then build a bed so they can sleep to regenerate Mana before they are ready to enter a dungeon. And after we clear a dungeon, we get to choose between something like "Your hunger rate is reduced by 0.3%" and "You can boil water 0.05 seconds faster". Then you hunt down bosses for limbs and other parts to craft your own boss weapons, with the special ones also granting a "boss soul" that allows you to level up its specific boss weapon. Killing 1000 bosses will allow you to craft a rune slot onto your weapon so that you can unlock a special boss ability, i.e. something like "Wet Noodle Sweep - Channel your inner strength and lash out with your wet spaghetti. Inflicts the 'wetness' debuff on enemies you hit, making them more susceptible to salt attacks and increasing their chance to become soggy."

/s

That's also what continues to confuse me; like, why change direction?

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

...
That's also what continues to confuse me; like, why change direction?

Because PoE1 already exists.

There's no reason to recreate the exact same game for the exact same people. The folks who want nothing but to "create chaos onscreen", gear to the zenith of stupidity and play a game that feels like Cookie Clicker but for procedurally generated randomized fireworks instead of cookies already have their game.

in case you haven't figured it out yet - and evidence suggests you have not - Grinding Gear is not making Diablo II.5 2 this time. They are explicitly and deliberately leaving "the genre" in many ways, blending new elements from modern gaming and experience from fifteen years of creating, maintaining, and operating Path of Exile to create the game they want to play now. They are expanding the genre, hybridizing it, making a new game that does not fit the borders established by Paleo-Blizzard thirty years ago.

They don't necessarily want to play Diablo II.5 2. They already have Diablo II.5 - Path the First. It has been updated throughout the years to be the best Diablo II.5 it can be, and it will continue to be so. So they are free to make their other game something else, for players who like aspects of Path of Exile 1 that aren't "creating chaos onscreen".

Because believe it or not, a lot of us hate how much of a janky, convoluted clownshoes mess high-level Path of Exile has become and are quite looking forward to a more measured game. Where things are a bit more under control, and buildcraft is about making interesting decisions rather than simply trying to figure out how Streamer Memers scale their damage by a factor of ten billion while doing largely the same exact shit on every single character because that's the shit you do when you have an unlimited Streamer Memer budget.

"

1453R wrote:

There's no reason to recreate the exact same game for the exact same people.

I never implied or said it should be the same game. What I was/am actually saying is that they are taking a huge risk by changing the formula way too much. In case you forgot, PoE wasn't a mere genius masterstroke, it wasn't carried by its gameplay or game design - it was archaic even for that era - it was largely carried by the abscence of choice in a time where the ARPG lands were in dire need of refreshment. They had the luxury to be able to work out their formula over time due to a lot of negative publicity in their favor, as well as a lot of positive media coverage and shoutouts from (actual) influencers. That is not to diminish their skills and efforts, but GGG had a shitload of luck and stars align the right way at the right time. It's foolish to always leave that bit out when even GGG themselves on numerous occasions have pointed that out. Granted, their position is now largely manifested, but it's not uncontested, nor is it rock solid.

Me outright mocking this different course of game direction isn't because I'm trying to be an asshole, it's because I'm somewhat anxious that they will shoot themselves in the foot in the process. Here's the thing with overambition and overdesign: They would not be the first to think whatever they crafted is so grand in its design that it cannot fail. Yet it's ambition that leads to design that, while seemingly grand, cinematic and refreshing, can become overburdening in itself, causing a cascading collapse that starts with overhyping something that is doomed to disappoint regardless. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 and how disaster struck; if expectations rise too high, there's only one road you can go: Downwards.

Trying to (realistically) maintain two games, let alone two divided player crowds, is imo delusional and likely doomed to fail. If you try to build upon your legacy in a way that is associated with your legacy and yet something entirely different, anything that doesn't meet expectations will sour the legacy (franchise). Or do I really need to remind you of Diablo Immoral? They are following the Diablo formula - stepping in their footsteps - whether you are ready to admit it or not. They want to be the next Blizzard.

"

1453R wrote:

in case you haven't figured it out yet - and evidence suggests you have not

Now, why did you have to make this personal? No need to try and insult my intelligence, that's just unnecessary and rude.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

I never implied or said it should be the same game. What I was/am actually saying is that they are taking a huge risk by changing the formula way too much. In case you forgot, PoE wasn't a mere genius masterstroke, it wasn't carried by its gameplay or game design - it was archaic even for that era - it was largely carried by the abscence of choice in a time where the ARPG lands were in dire need of refreshment. They had the luxury to be able to work out their formula over time due to a lot of negative publicity in their favor, as well as a lot of positive media coverage and shoutouts from (actual) influencers. That is not to diminish their skills and efforts, but GGG had a shitload of luck and stars align the right way at the right time. It's foolish to always leave that bit out when even GGG themselves on numerous occasions have pointed that out. Granted, their position is now largely manifested, but it's not uncontested, nor is it rock solid.

The other difference between Then and Now is that the Grinding Gear Games of Then was an unknown, untested name with almost no resources to that name. They were Scrappy New Guys with a Dream, and people were rooting for them in part because of that little-guy-with-a-dream energy. Yes, the situation worked out for them because they dropped the right game at the right time and revitalized a genre.

Now? Grinding Gear Games is one of the strongest ARPG studios in the world, if not the strongest. Yes, Blizzard has vastly more resources, but let's be real - nobody at Blizzard gives a tenth-part as much of a frog fart about their properties as Grinding Gear does. GGG has resources, it has personnel, it has technology and experience - all things it did not have when it cast its lot into the world a decade-plus ago. They don't need to rely solely on luck. And as you say - the ARPG market is crowded and hotly contested now. Why would anyone care about yet another safe, boring, unimaginative Diablo clone that doesn't do anything new or exciting? Why would people put D4 down to play Grinding Gear's D4-but-smaller-and-weirder?

This is the kind of situation where "the safe play" of simply making the same exact thing that worked ten years ago is in fact the worst, riskiest, most danger-fraught move of all. Either Grinding Gear Games reinvents the ARPG genre - again - or it loses its place as the juggernaut default-winner in those games all tussling for players in Diablo's shadow. It's what dozens of failed MMOs sacrificed at the feet of World of Borecraft all failed to learn - you'll never beat Blizzard by copying Blizzard. You can't beat D4 by just being newer, slightly-reskinned D4. GGG might wel stumble and fall on their butts with this wild risk they're taking - but they're GUARANTEED to wind up on their hindsides if they DON'T take any risks.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Me outright mocking this different course of game direction isn't because I'm trying to be an asshole, it's because I'm somewhat anxious that they will shoot themselves in the foot in the process. Here's the thing with overambition and overdesign: They would not be the first to think whatever they crafted is so grand in its design that it cannot fail. Yet it's ambition that leads to design that, while seemingly grand, cinematic and refreshing, can become overburdening in itself, causing a cascading collapse that starts with overhyping something that is doomed to disappoint regardless. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 and how disaster struck; if expectations rise too high, there's only one road you can go: Downwards.

Cyberpunk 2077 took three years to fix, but at the end of those three years it's nigh-universally hailed as one of gaming's greatest redemption arcs. Phantom Liberty is world-class content, and the 2.0 patch redefined the game. Cyberpunk 2077 is proof that a rocky, terrible launch can in fact be overcome if the developers roll up their sleeves, pull on their best rubber gloves, and fix it. The game was a wild financial success for CDPR. their reputation took a bruising blow, to be sure - but they also got a lot of that reputation back by knuckling down and making the situation right. They've proven to players that even if they biff the launch, you can rely on them to unbiff it over time.

I played Phantom Liberty/Patch 2.0. You wanna talk "create chaos onscreen", or "become a demigod that crushes hordes of monsters"? Play that game as a high-level V with Sandevistan cyberware and a kit focusing on blades and throwing knives. Nothing in PoE has ever, ever, felt remotely as absolutely almighty as time-dancing murder goddess V. I had to crank the combat difficulty up because by the time I got everything lined up it wasn't even remotely fair anymore. Like, yikes. Gimme my V instead of whatever exile du jour is the meta build this week and I'll go turn the Maven into sashimi in twelve seconds.

Much like CDPR didn't give up on CP2077, Grinding Gear is clearly a studio that will not give up on the game when it has a rough patch, or if it has a rocky EA launch. they never gave up on PoE1 when it had a rough league, and the story of PoE2's development so far is one of tremendous willingness to do whatever it takes to fix the game properly even if an easier path might've gotten an inferior product out the door faster.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Trying to (realistically) maintain two games, let alone two divided player crowds, is imo delusional and likely doomed to fail. If you try to build upon your legacy in a way that is associated with your legacy and yet something entirely different, anything that doesn't meet expectations will sour the legacy (franchise). Or do I really need to remind you of Diablo Immoral? They are following the Diablo formula - stepping in their footsteps - whether you are ready to admit it or not. They want to be the next Blizzard.

Blizzard manages how many properties? Diablo, Starcraft, Warcraft, Overwatch, half a hundred other smaller IPs? Hell, CDPR operates The Witcher and now Cyberpunk and has no plans on giving up either. How many games and IPs does BioWare throw out there? Bethesda?

GGG doesn't want to be 'the next Blizzard'. They want to be the best Grinding Gear Games they can be. They have no interest in poorly disguised Skinner box money leech apps like Diablo Immortal. Hell, if Bestiary League and Einhar's original voicelines, not to mention the whole 'Mobile Fall Guy' gag, weren't enough of a clue, how 'bout the fact that Path of exile on Mobile isn't "Path of Exile: Immortal", but is instead the original-ass game just being re-engineered for mobile because there's millions of mobile-only players out there and Grinding Gear would like for them to be able to play PoE if they want to.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Now, why did you have to make this personal? No need to try and insult my intelligence, that's just unnecessary and rude.

Wasn't insulting your intelligence. I was commenting on the fact that you don't seem to've picked up what it is Grinding Gear is actually trying to do. they're not trying to make "another ARPG". They are asking the question "why do all modern ARPGs look the same and have mostly the same honestly really crappy action? Why isn't anyone taking all the lessons the action game industry has been learning for decades now and putting them in the 'action' RPG genre? Is there any reason we can't make an awesome ARPG that's alsoan awesome action game?"

you complain that GGG's stepping outside the genre, abandoning their roots, and creating not-an-ARPG? That's the point. The galactic standard D2-esque ARPG is old, tired, worn out, and in absolutely dire need of being revitalized and reinvented. There's absolutely no reason anyone should make another bog-standard D2 clone ARPG ever again. That market has been thoroughly served.

Time to find the next new awesome thing.

"

1453R wrote:

Cyberpunk 2077 took three years to fix, but at the end of those three years it's nigh-universally hailed as one of gaming's greatest redemption arcs. Phantom Liberty is world-class content, and the 2.0 patch redefined the game. Cyberpunk 2077 is proof that a rocky, terrible launch can in fact be overcome if the developers roll up their sleeves, pull on their best rubber gloves, and fix it.

Yeah, that's not quite what happened, though. They eventually did pull through, yes, but the events that led to that are quite different than you describe here.

The company nearly went down under after the release disaster, with several major investors pulling the emergency brake, then was forced to make amends in a way that was a serious financial setback. And they ONLY survived because they had a massive established fanbase from their Witcher games to fall back on. The no-questions-asked refunds, the free updates to Witcher 3, the game going on heavily reduced price sales multiple times, the frequent Keanu Reeves promotions and lots of other things.

None of that, however, did undo the massive hit they took to their financials, stock ratings and player loyalty aka. their reputation. And the game is still not even close to the (arguably cooler) game they showed us ~2 years prior to release. So much cut and redesigned content, it's no wonder they were struggling with a timely release. All that fancy destruction and complex interactions with NPCs got scrapped, just to name one.

And they are not making a sequel, they are making several new Witcher games. That should tell you all you need to know. Stick to your guns, as they say.

I have yet to play Phantom Liberty, though. Haven't touched the game in quite a while.

The sequel to Cyberpunk 2077 is currently in early development, under the codename "Project Orion". It's being developed by CDP North America, helmed by the guy who helmed Phantom Liberty.

Cyberpunk 2077 grossed 609 million dollars in digital sales alone by December of 2020 with ~10M digital units sold, long before all the fixes for the game had come in. It has, as of October 2023 nearly a year ago, sold over 25 million total units. It has indeed cost CDPR an absolute fortune, currently holding the title of second most expensive video game ever created. Only beaten out by decades-long utter boondoggle Star Citizen. And yet it has also made CDPR a bigger fortune. The console technical issues impacted sales, but the game was always first and foremost a PC title.

CDPR landed in quite a bit of hot water, to be sure. They had to do a lot of scrambling to avoid long-running legal issues. But they managed to get in front of it, took their lumps. They had to fork over a bit under two million to investors to account for their mishandling of the game, but remember - this is a game that had grossed over 600 million by its first couple weeks of release, before they spent the second half of their fortune on fixing it. They had the money to throw around, and the entire industry learned important lessons from Cyberpunk's extremely public bellyflop of a launch. If not necessarily the lessons gamers wanted it to learn.

Basic fact-checking.

In short? Don't worry so much. PoE2 will never flop as hard as CP2077 did in the first place because Grinding Gear simply isn't that big a studio and isn't making those kinds of promises, nor building that level of hype. They don't have enough wind to blow that big a bubble, and unlike CP2077 we've been seeing tons of in-progress work from them. They've been giving Streamer Memers access to in-dev builds for, like...a year now, and in the most recent playtests all the aforementioned influencers have largely had glowing praise for the game. Not flawless praise, but they also made their opinions known when the game wasn't doing so well, i.e. the March preview cycle where things were overtuned, flasks were donkey'd, and nobody really had any fun.

The entire point of Early Access is to tune this crap up and make sure it shines before they throw the doors open. If you aren't liking what you're seeing? Don't play EA. Path the First will still have plenty of league happening. You will have ample chance to continue creating chaos onscreen while the rest of us are puttering around the PoE2 equivalent of Sarn proving GGG's old observation of "anything can be an endgame".

Time to farm Brutus again, ladies and gentlemen.

"

1453R wrote:

Basic fact-checking.

Fine, I wasn't up-to-date on the most recent developments. Yet you are comparing revenue vs cost, rather than their actual financials.

Their stock value took a nose-dive - by over 75% - after release and has since only (slowly) recovered. Phantom Liberty's success is what actually tipped the scales over the last year, from negative to once again positive. It had negative stock market value for 3 consecutive years after Cyberpunk. Maybe take that into account.

"

1453R wrote:

PoE2 will never flop as hard as CP2077 did in the first place because Grinding Gear simply isn't that big a studio and isn't making those kinds of promises, nor building that level of hype.

This isn't necessarily a matter of size. When you have a very niche but extremely loyal fanbase, alienating them with wrong decisions, especially in a free2play business plan environment; each major change of direction should be measured with extreme caution.

"

1453R wrote:

If you aren't liking what you're seeing? Don't play EA.

I'm actually liking a lot of what I'm seeing, but I'm not blind to potential problems, either. I'm just a touch too annoyed by all the hypers that continue to parrot how PoE 2 will be our "salvation" and "fix everything".

Fact is, they are being awfully mysterious and reserved about the game, which does not sit right with me, to be honest. I'd like to see more, but they are handing out only crumbs of information and/or showing us positively framed footage, which has shown in the past to have negative side effects on user perception.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

I'm actually liking a lot of what I'm seeing, but I'm not blind to potential problems, either. I'm just a touch too annoyed by all the hypers that continue to parrot how PoE 2 will be our "salvation" and "fix everything".

Fact is, they are being awfully mysterious and reserved about the game, which does not sit right with me, to be honest. I'd like to see more, but they are handing out only crumbs of information and/or showing us positively framed footage, which has shown in the past to have negative side effects on user perception.

Young people get hyped. Older people have too much experience for that.

It all comes down to if you like PoE 1 or not, I guess. Some people sorely want (or need) PoE 2 to be the "salvation", because they (no longer) get much enjoyment out of PoE 1.

And some people want a slower game, they want to be forced into a rinse and repeat of combo playstyle. They want boss fights to last for "10" minutes that you need to start all over again if you fail. They want to be forced into town to refill flasks. Can't blame them for that, really; they want a different game. And truth be told, there's not really much point in making a PoE 2 (or to separate PoE 2 from PoE 1) if they're not making it different.

Personally? I think I like everything about PoE 2, except the gameplay. Which sucks - for me. New socket system, new weapon swap system, new weapon types, graphics, audio, animations all look good. Gameplay? Looks boring AF to me. And if it's tuned around WASD? God, no. Luckily, I will have PoE 1. For me, it all comes down to the support PoE 1 will get in the future.