From what we've seen so far, do you feel you're going to stay with PoE1 or move to PoE2?

"

Jitter912 wrote:

.

I did read it all but its.......like all wrong. 100% wrong. I'll start by just blanket saying you didn't offer anything in terms of fixes for your complaints (which I sort of suspected would be the case). Instead you went off on completely unrelated tangents. I would remind you that your main complaint was map and monster mods and you commented on exactly ONE mod (Soul Eater), incorrectly stating that basically every monster has it. You said nothing about map mods. Nothing about challenge. Nothing about the actual issues YOU raised. Let's break down the incorrect statements:

1) Binary Suppress or Die: nope. Just not even remotely true. This is only the case for massive hits which you barely ever take outside of bossing. You ignore skill, recovery, small hits, movement, positioning, partially defensive builds that do just fine, etc. Endless examples proving this to be false.

2) Tank god or DPS god: again.....nope. Wildly inaccurate statement here. Unless you are looking at only the top 10 builds on PoE Ninja in terms of dps and tank, most builds are finding the happy medium. It is generally the FAILURE builds that try to do only one thing. Unhelpful streamers like to show the extremes because that gets them money, but the vast majority of builds out there are NOT the extremes. Unless of course you can't think for yourself at all. And actually this comment reveals WHY you think monsters and mods are such a problem....because you don't actually understand builds.

3) "only build that exists, ask the forum": have you ever read anyone's responses when people critique a build? 9 times out of 10, the suggestions are for very specific circumstances where a build is severely lacking in one area. It is exceedingly rare that you get people here telling you that you need EVERY defense under the sun in order to be successful. Quite the opposite actually

4) Your suggestions: most do not fit the genre and would be so supremely hated on release, such as your "area becomes fatal after a while" lava/race idea. Some others already exist. Most are again incorrect statements. All mobs are the same?! what? There are like 30 rare mods and 20 more blue mods. Monster synergies: league content, AN mods, these already exist and are precisely what you hate lol.

5) Crafting specific items to reach goals in the game: this has ALWAYS been a failure in any game that tries to do it. Why would ANYONE want to equip a temporary item for one instance in a loot-based gearing game?

6) Again with the resistances example! This is the second time I've seen that in a week. People routinely run -max resist mod maps and elemental weakness mod maps with sub-50 resistances.....with NO PROBLEM. Max resists is commonly called for because it is so damn easy to get, why wouldn't you? But you CAN do without them provided you have other defenses.

7) Div/hr.....this is a PERSONAL issue. I have played this game for over 12 years now and I never think in terms of div/hr. The second I do is the second I decide to put the game down because I'm no longer having fun. You hear that terminology a lot but, again, it is NOT the majority that plays the game in those terms.

8) Scaling: nope again. The only big leap in difficulty is from Act 10 to mapping. But once you get to maps it is quite linear in terms of difficulty. The next huge jump is t17s, but that is new content still being adjusted, AND its meant to be "uber" content.

Most of the post just completely devolves off-topic with everything you care to complain about, because I think very quickly you realized that you didn't really know what you were talking about. I was hoping you actually had given any thought to what you might change about the things you commented on being so terrible for the game and yet you didn't, and misrepresented the game and these forums at the same time.

"

Jitter912 wrote:

Relax the binary nature of their game. 0% resists sucks 75% is awesome and 40% is good and good ... is good.. and keeps you alive in a meaningful way. not 75% is good and everything else well you are dead. There should be character spectrum's not clones of the same all resistant to everything builds.

Even though your post is 97% wrong, I won't go that hard on you because it clearly comes from a lack of knowledge, which is OK. The problem, though, probably comes next: How to you respond when someone tells you that you're wrong? Will you seek and swallow that knowledge, or will you keep arguing?

Resistances aren't binary. 0% sucks. 75% is OK. 80% is good. Everything above that becomes better and better. Nothing binary about it. Getting 75% is easy. Getting 80% is a little bit harder. Everything above that becomes exponentially harder and harder/more expensive. What is binary about it? It's called character/gear progression.

Spell Suppression: Isolated, it's pretty binary, I'll give you that. But as all defenses in PoE, suppression is just one of many defensive layers you'd want and you can't look at them isolated. An elemental spell gets reduced by both your resistances, your suppression and other reduction to elemental damage. Combined, there's nothing binary about it.

I've made my own build this league; Frenzy of Onslaught Slayer. Doing T17 and some Ubers just fine. Can't really call a build playing Frenzy of Onslaught with a 1H sword "META", so making your own build is more than possible.

There is a spectrum, but sure; you DO want to have certain defenses, but that goas for ALL ARPGs, doesn't it?

I will move to Path of Exile 2 and most likely not return, or rarely. I find Path of Exile 1 combat, graphics and lack of quality of life features, too bad for 2024 and the only reason I kept coming back was because there was not really any alternative.

"

Jitter912 wrote:

...
Relax the binary nature of their game. 0% resists sucks 75% is awesome and 40% is good and good ... is good.. and keeps you alive in a meaningful way. not 75% is good and everything else well you are dead. There should be character spectrum's not clones of the same all resistant to everything builds.

When every character can recover all of its HP in less than a second, generate infinite flask charges even against bosses, and achieve EHP levels in the hundreds of thousands if not millions...how do you suggest they 'relax the binary'? Any attack/mechanic/effect that doesn't kill you outright is entirely meaningless. half the map modifiers you're complaining about are there to chip away at the egregiously power-crept modifiers top-end builds can attain now and try to reduce their power without turning them off entirely - and people solve that by overgearing to the extent that even just twenty percent of their build's numerical power is enough to render everything that comes at them utterly irrelevant.

There is no "relax the binary" left in path the First. PoE2's slower, more measured and methodical design paradigm is required if one wants to have an actual back and forth with enemies where your resources matter, because in PoE1 all your resources are effectively infinite. The only way to challenge or threaten you is to prevent you from using your infinite resources entirely, through "one-shot" mechanics.

As someone who cannot achieve the sort of Ludicrous Speed-level scaling everyone else assumes is the baseline, I can guarantee you - when you do not have infinite resources, the game can become quite challenging indeed. Just not in a way that tends to be satisfying to overcome, unfortunately.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

...
That's also what continues to confuse me; like, why change direction?

Because PoE1 already exists.

There's no reason to recreate the exact same game for the exact same people. The folks who want nothing but to "create chaos onscreen", gear to the zenith of stupidity and play a game that feels like Cookie Clicker but for procedurally generated randomized fireworks instead of cookies already have their game.

in case you haven't figured it out yet - and evidence suggests you have not - Grinding Gear is not making Diablo II.5 2 this time. They are explicitly and deliberately leaving "the genre" in many ways, blending new elements from modern gaming and experience from fifteen years of creating, maintaining, and operating Path of Exile to create the game they want to play now. They are expanding the genre, hybridizing it, making a new game that does not fit the borders established by Paleo-Blizzard thirty years ago.

They don't necessarily want to play Diablo II.5 2. They already have Diablo II.5 - Path the First. It has been updated throughout the years to be the best Diablo II.5 it can be, and it will continue to be so. So they are free to make their other game something else, for players who like aspects of Path of Exile 1 that aren't "creating chaos onscreen".

Because believe it or not, a lot of us hate how much of a janky, convoluted clownshoes mess high-level Path of Exile has become and are quite looking forward to a more measured game. Where things are a bit more under control, and buildcraft is about making interesting decisions rather than simply trying to figure out how Streamer Memers scale their damage by a factor of ten billion while doing largely the same exact shit on every single character because that's the shit you do when you have an unlimited Streamer Memer budget.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

I never implied or said it should be the same game. What I was/am actually saying is that they are taking a huge risk by changing the formula way too much. In case you forgot, PoE wasn't a mere genius masterstroke, it wasn't carried by its gameplay or game design - it was archaic even for that era - it was largely carried by the abscence of choice in a time where the ARPG lands were in dire need of refreshment. They had the luxury to be able to work out their formula over time due to a lot of negative publicity in their favor, as well as a lot of positive media coverage and shoutouts from (actual) influencers. That is not to diminish their skills and efforts, but GGG had a shitload of luck and stars align the right way at the right time. It's foolish to always leave that bit out when even GGG themselves on numerous occasions have pointed that out. Granted, their position is now largely manifested, but it's not uncontested, nor is it rock solid.

The other difference between Then and Now is that the Grinding Gear Games of Then was an unknown, untested name with almost no resources to that name. They were Scrappy New Guys with a Dream, and people were rooting for them in part because of that little-guy-with-a-dream energy. Yes, the situation worked out for them because they dropped the right game at the right time and revitalized a genre.

Now? Grinding Gear Games is one of the strongest ARPG studios in the world, if not the strongest. Yes, Blizzard has vastly more resources, but let's be real - nobody at Blizzard gives a tenth-part as much of a frog fart about their properties as Grinding Gear does. GGG has resources, it has personnel, it has technology and experience - all things it did not have when it cast its lot into the world a decade-plus ago. They don't need to rely solely on luck. And as you say - the ARPG market is crowded and hotly contested now. Why would anyone care about yet another safe, boring, unimaginative Diablo clone that doesn't do anything new or exciting? Why would people put D4 down to play Grinding Gear's D4-but-smaller-and-weirder?

This is the kind of situation where "the safe play" of simply making the same exact thing that worked ten years ago is in fact the worst, riskiest, most danger-fraught move of all. Either Grinding Gear Games reinvents the ARPG genre - again - or it loses its place as the juggernaut default-winner in those games all tussling for players in Diablo's shadow. It's what dozens of failed MMOs sacrificed at the feet of World of Borecraft all failed to learn - you'll never beat Blizzard by copying Blizzard. You can't beat D4 by just being newer, slightly-reskinned D4. GGG might wel stumble and fall on their butts with this wild risk they're taking - but they're GUARANTEED to wind up on their hindsides if they DON'T take any risks.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Me outright mocking this different course of game direction isn't because I'm trying to be an asshole, it's because I'm somewhat anxious that they will shoot themselves in the foot in the process. Here's the thing with overambition and overdesign: They would not be the first to think whatever they crafted is so grand in its design that it cannot fail. Yet it's ambition that leads to design that, while seemingly grand, cinematic and refreshing, can become overburdening in itself, causing a cascading collapse that starts with overhyping something that is doomed to disappoint regardless. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 and how disaster struck; if expectations rise too high, there's only one road you can go: Downwards.

Cyberpunk 2077 took three years to fix, but at the end of those three years it's nigh-universally hailed as one of gaming's greatest redemption arcs. Phantom Liberty is world-class content, and the 2.0 patch redefined the game. Cyberpunk 2077 is proof that a rocky, terrible launch can in fact be overcome if the developers roll up their sleeves, pull on their best rubber gloves, and fix it. The game was a wild financial success for CDPR. their reputation took a bruising blow, to be sure - but they also got a lot of that reputation back by knuckling down and making the situation right. They've proven to players that even if they biff the launch, you can rely on them to unbiff it over time.

I played Phantom Liberty/Patch 2.0. You wanna talk "create chaos onscreen", or "become a demigod that crushes hordes of monsters"? Play that game as a high-level V with Sandevistan cyberware and a kit focusing on blades and throwing knives. Nothing in PoE has ever, ever, felt remotely as absolutely almighty as time-dancing murder goddess V. I had to crank the combat difficulty up because by the time I got everything lined up it wasn't even remotely fair anymore. Like, yikes. Gimme my V instead of whatever exile du jour is the meta build this week and I'll go turn the Maven into sashimi in twelve seconds.

Much like CDPR didn't give up on CP2077, Grinding Gear is clearly a studio that will not give up on the game when it has a rough patch, or if it has a rocky EA launch. they never gave up on PoE1 when it had a rough league, and the story of PoE2's development so far is one of tremendous willingness to do whatever it takes to fix the game properly even if an easier path might've gotten an inferior product out the door faster.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Trying to (realistically) maintain two games, let alone two divided player crowds, is imo delusional and likely doomed to fail. If you try to build upon your legacy in a way that is associated with your legacy and yet something entirely different, anything that doesn't meet expectations will sour the legacy (franchise). Or do I really need to remind you of Diablo Immoral? They are following the Diablo formula - stepping in their footsteps - whether you are ready to admit it or not. They want to be the next Blizzard.

Blizzard manages how many properties? Diablo, Starcraft, Warcraft, Overwatch, half a hundred other smaller IPs? Hell, CDPR operates The Witcher and now Cyberpunk and has no plans on giving up either. How many games and IPs does BioWare throw out there? Bethesda?

GGG doesn't want to be 'the next Blizzard'. They want to be the best Grinding Gear Games they can be. They have no interest in poorly disguised Skinner box money leech apps like Diablo Immortal. Hell, if Bestiary League and Einhar's original voicelines, not to mention the whole 'Mobile Fall Guy' gag, weren't enough of a clue, how 'bout the fact that Path of exile on Mobile isn't "Path of Exile: Immortal", but is instead the original-ass game just being re-engineered for mobile because there's millions of mobile-only players out there and Grinding Gear would like for them to be able to play PoE if they want to.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Now, why did you have to make this personal? No need to try and insult my intelligence, that's just unnecessary and rude.

Wasn't insulting your intelligence. I was commenting on the fact that you don't seem to've picked up what it is Grinding Gear is actually trying to do. they're not trying to make "another ARPG". They are asking the question "why do all modern ARPGs look the same and have mostly the same honestly really crappy action? Why isn't anyone taking all the lessons the action game industry has been learning for decades now and putting them in the 'action' RPG genre? Is there any reason we can't make an awesome ARPG that's alsoan awesome action game?"

you complain that GGG's stepping outside the genre, abandoning their roots, and creating not-an-ARPG? That's the point. The galactic standard D2-esque ARPG is old, tired, worn out, and in absolutely dire need of being revitalized and reinvented. There's absolutely no reason anyone should make another bog-standard D2 clone ARPG ever again. That market has been thoroughly served.

Time to find the next new awesome thing.

The sequel to Cyberpunk 2077 is currently in early development, under the codename "Project Orion". It's being developed by CDP North America, helmed by the guy who helmed Phantom Liberty.

Cyberpunk 2077 grossed 609 million dollars in digital sales alone by December of 2020 with ~10M digital units sold, long before all the fixes for the game had come in. It has, as of October 2023 nearly a year ago, sold over 25 million total units. It has indeed cost CDPR an absolute fortune, currently holding the title of second most expensive video game ever created. Only beaten out by decades-long utter boondoggle Star Citizen. And yet it has also made CDPR a bigger fortune. The console technical issues impacted sales, but the game was always first and foremost a PC title.

CDPR landed in quite a bit of hot water, to be sure. They had to do a lot of scrambling to avoid long-running legal issues. But they managed to get in front of it, took their lumps. They had to fork over a bit under two million to investors to account for their mishandling of the game, but remember - this is a game that had grossed over 600 million by its first couple weeks of release, before they spent the second half of their fortune on fixing it. They had the money to throw around, and the entire industry learned important lessons from Cyberpunk's extremely public bellyflop of a launch. If not necessarily the lessons gamers wanted it to learn.

Basic fact-checking.

In short? Don't worry so much. PoE2 will never flop as hard as CP2077 did in the first place because Grinding Gear simply isn't that big a studio and isn't making those kinds of promises, nor building that level of hype. They don't have enough wind to blow that big a bubble, and unlike CP2077 we've been seeing tons of in-progress work from them. They've been giving Streamer Memers access to in-dev builds for, like...a year now, and in the most recent playtests all the aforementioned influencers have largely had glowing praise for the game. Not flawless praise, but they also made their opinions known when the game wasn't doing so well, i.e. the March preview cycle where things were overtuned, flasks were donkey'd, and nobody really had any fun.

The entire point of Early Access is to tune this crap up and make sure it shines before they throw the doors open. If you aren't liking what you're seeing? Don't play EA. Path the First will still have plenty of league happening. You will have ample chance to continue creating chaos onscreen while the rest of us are puttering around the PoE2 equivalent of Sarn proving GGG's old observation of "anything can be an endgame".

Time to farm Brutus again, ladies and gentlemen.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

I'm actually liking a lot of what I'm seeing, but I'm not blind to potential problems, either. I'm just a touch too annoyed by all the hypers that continue to parrot how PoE 2 will be our "salvation" and "fix everything".

Fact is, they are being awfully mysterious and reserved about the game, which does not sit right with me, to be honest. I'd like to see more, but they are handing out only crumbs of information and/or showing us positively framed footage, which has shown in the past to have negative side effects on user perception.

Young people get hyped. Older people have too much experience for that.

It all comes down to if you like PoE 1 or not, I guess. Some people sorely want (or need) PoE 2 to be the "salvation", because they (no longer) get much enjoyment out of PoE 1.

And some people want a slower game, they want to be forced into a rinse and repeat of combo playstyle. They want boss fights to last for "10" minutes that you need to start all over again if you fail. They want to be forced into town to refill flasks. Can't blame them for that, really; they want a different game. And truth be told, there's not really much point in making a PoE 2 (or to separate PoE 2 from PoE 1) if they're not making it different.

Personally? I think I like everything about PoE 2, except the gameplay. Which sucks - for me. New socket system, new weapon swap system, new weapon types, graphics, audio, animations all look good. Gameplay? Looks boring AF to me. And if it's tuned around WASD? God, no. Luckily, I will have PoE 1. For me, it all comes down to the support PoE 1 will get in the future.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

Fine, I wasn't up-to-date on the most recent developments. Yet you are comparing revenue vs cost, rather than their actual financials.

Their stock value took a nose-dive - by over 75% - after release and has since only (slowly) recovered. Phantom Liberty's success is what actually tipped the scales over the last year, from negative to once again positive. It had negative stock market value for 3 consecutive years after Cyberpunk. Maybe take that into account.

A game that made $600M with over 10 million digital units sold, then went on to sell over 15 million more units, is a game that is successful. One can pick corporate nits all they like, but the end result is the same - Cyberpunk turned around. It redeemed itself. Does every game do that? No - but you picked one of the two highest profile ones that did.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

This isn't necessarily a matter of size. When you have a very niche but extremely loyal fanbase, alienating them with wrong decisions, especially in a free2play business plan environment; each major change of direction should be measured with extreme caution.

I am a MechWarrior/Armored Core/Zone of the Enders diehard fangirl. it does not get more "niche but loyal" than BattleTech fans, and Armored Core/ZoE isn't far behind. Doesn't change the rules of engagement - you can play it safe and never get anywhere, or you can swing for the fences and hope you hit. I'd rather see someone swing and fail than see someone produce a bunch of inoffensive, unimaginative, 'safe' tapioca-pudding garbage.

It is as Phrazz said. If not for PoE2, I would no longer really care much about Path of Exile. This game is no longer a game I care to play. I invest in it mostly to keep reasonably up to date on PoE2, but at this point the requirement to get to "moderately good build" is so out of reach of ordinary players that there's no real point anymore. Either you're a Streamer Memer adherent who does what Ziz, Mathil, Ghazzy or the rest tell you to do, or you get nowhere. It sucks, but what can a girl do? Other than play other games, I suppose. Settlers is actually a fantastic league, I'm glad I jumped in for a month or so to give it a run, but I just don't have the wind for this game anymore.

If PoE2 was nothing more than a crap retread of ground PoE1 already covered? There'd be no damn point in playing it.

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

I'm actually liking a lot of what I'm seeing, but I'm not blind to potential problems, either. I'm just a touch too annoyed by all the hypers that continue to parrot how PoE 2 will be our "salvation" and "fix everything".

Fact is, they are being awfully mysterious and reserved about the game, which does not sit right with me, to be honest. I'd like to see more, but they are handing out only crumbs of information and/or showing us positively framed footage, which has shown in the past to have negative side effects on user perception.

People are excited by what they see. They want to talk about it. whether it's a "salvation that fixes everything" remains to be seen of course, but I am basically one hundred percent behind every single major decision they've made with the game. Slower, more rhythmic combo-based combat? Hell, I played the bejeegus out of Devil May Cry - gimme. Elaborate boss fights with towering monstrosities that require a bit of patience and strategy to take down? I've got a thousand hours in elden Ring - gimme. WASD controls that allow fluid, dynamic movement baked into every skill? Mein gott, I'll take five please. I really, truly do not think the game will feel 'slow' at all when people get into it and start playing and learning it. Just like Elden Ring doesn't really feel 'slow' when you're in the midst of doing battle with half a dozen jackwads because you got a little careless.

As for them being 'mysterious and reserved'? They know better. The stuff people are clamoring for is all "LEMME MAKE BUILDS!" information. That stuff is in rapid flux right now. A skill tree they released right now would be hopelessly out of date by the time the game drops in forty-odd days, and people would be furious. Why throw out information everybody knows is preliminary and subject to change, but will blame them for changing anyways?

"

BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

"

1453R wrote:

PoE2's slower, more measured and methodical design paradigm is required if one wants to have an actual back and forth with enemies where your resources matter, because in PoE1 all your resources are effectively infinite.

Yeah, here's the thing, though: it's the wrong genre for that. It's "hack & slash", not "Souls-like". The whole point of the genre is to progressively become a demigod and to decimate hordes of monsters, not dance around enemies and carefully manage your resources. That's what Souls-like Adventure RPGs are for.

And before you know it, we will have to gather sticks and rocks to make a campfire so that we can cook food and boil water to quench our Exile's hunger and thirst rate so they don't suffer from exhaustion (reduces maximum HP and Mana), then build a bed so they can sleep to regenerate Mana before they are ready to enter a dungeon. And after we clear a dungeon, we get to choose between something like "Your hunger rate is reduced by 0.3%" and "You can boil water 0.05 seconds faster". Then you hunt down bosses for limbs and other parts to craft your own boss weapons, with the special ones also granting a "boss soul" that allows you to level up its specific boss weapon. Killing 1000 bosses will allow you to craft a rune slot onto your weapon so that you can unlock a special boss ability, i.e. something like "Wet Noodle Sweep - Channel your inner strength and lash out with your wet spaghetti. Inflicts the 'wetness' debuff on enemies you hit, making them more susceptible to salt attacks and increasing their chance to become soggy."



/s

That's also what continues to confuse me; like, why change direction?

Rare i laugh out loud, thats funny.
I understand the desire to change direction.

The top end build in PoE are well .. getting stupid.
This league I played witha friend who likes to experiment and got some good market sales early so had some cash to throw around.

He had a new build every day .. hex blast .. some Fire/Chaos build .. not sure what the frost build was but .. they were all top tier ... and I was blind the entire time .. to the point i just start laughing in discord cause im just hyper fixated on my health bar .. waiting to die ... i cant see anything with the lightshow his charaters are giving with hyper fast attacks or complementing spell interactions.

He had a cast on damage where he is damaging himself and chaining aoe's like a mother... It does need to slow down ... but not the activity and pacing ... but definitely the attack speed ... if im hitting 100 times per second doing 1 million damage or hitting once every 2 seconds doing 2 million .. same pacing slower animations ..whatever... it is too fast to have meaningful feedback to killing things.

Im ok with it but don't pull back too far .. .

If I may I describe what i think was perfect pacing and just very satisfying gameplay in this genre.

The exploding palm monk from Diablo 3

It required 3 things
The Grouping of all the mobs on screen into a ball (however you choose)
Marking an individual with the exploding palm ... I think i was cold...
Then the detonation .... KaaaBOOOOM!!!

Carnage .. the more the density the bigger the boom ...
you used to build detonation balls .. to contain as many yellows as possible
or keep pulling them with you as you build ball after death ball ... it was friggin glorious !!!! and

highly engaging game play.
diverse in that you can group or detonate however you like .. monk had a grouping skill to pull the mobs...

The Poe Equivalent would be if Void Sphere pulled in all the mobs in a radius ... then based on the total hit points of the mobs pulled in would detonate killing everything inside or throwing out half dead yellows ... if the ball was dense enough ..nothing was going to live...

So so so satisfying.
They need that kind of pacing where yes you can kill the whole screen .
Yes you can do it without highly repetitive movements.
Yes it is visually stunning but not blinding...
and honestly add a real low low down in the guts THUOOM! to the explosion.... epic.

but too slow ... with too many rolls .. roll .. roll .. roll , a la Dark Rolls and Elden Ring Around the Rosie. and it is tedious and that will not be well received by the PoE 1 lovers.