T17 maps and modifiers are THE WORST thing that happened to POE

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

I've never even heard of this item lol, looks like some kind of gamba random-stats gimmick like eyes of the greatwolf. Probably too expensive for any normal player to buy. Its also literally useless to a build that doesn't stack spell suppress, 30% might aswell be 0.

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It comes by assembling 4 curio fragments, which drop from uber bosses.

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/The_Utmost

It always rolls the same stats, and the value can be anywhere from 1c to multiple mirrors due to the huge range the stats can roll in.

Yes, that one was a flex. I'm done arguing with you about your same opinions across multiple forum post.

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

“Skill” and “build” aren’t interchangeable. A player’s mechanical knowledge and decision-making can be great while their build still has deliberate tradeoffs due to economy or design. That’s what “engineered build issue” means: a conscious limitation, not incompetence.

Saying “creating a viable build is a skill, therefore all build issues are skill issues” is circular reasoning. By that logic, no statement about balance or design ever matters, because any failure anywhere is automatically “skill issue.” That’s not analysis, that’s a catch-all dismissal.

As for “any budget,” that’s just not reality. Budget and itemization define PoE’s entire progression. Pretending skill alone bridges those gaps ignores the economic layer that the devs explicitly designed into the game.

And the “context”: my post wasn’t defending people complaining about mods. It was describing why some builds have hard counters that can’t always be affordably patched out, but can be easily rerolled. You reframed the discussion to a different target and then argued against that.

So, no, it’s not “semantics.” It’s recognizing that build engineering involves tradeoffs, and acknowledging those tradeoffs isn’t lack of skill, it’s simply part of the game.

That's wrong. Can't say it any nicer. It's just wrong. Every paragraph. You simply write off "knowledge" as NOT being a skill and formulate every thought from that incorrect jumping off point. You have it right in that "skill" and "build" aren't interchangeable, because foundationally you can't even have a build unless you have the skill to build it (except if you copy/paste). It's not circular reasoning, its a CORE ASPECT of PoE and one of the foundational skills required of a player. It's why your first few builds are terrible, but as you gain more knowledge and experience....your BUILDS improve. Over time, you are increasing your SKILL at creating viable builds for content.

Knowing how to craft a build from the very moment you start at level 1, no matter what your budget, items, etc. is skill-based. The entire foundation is built on game knowledge and experience, both of which are skills.

You are failing to recognize that, at every step of the build creation, you are utilizing the skills and knowledge you learned through trial and error to make decisions. That is the essence of build crafting. At ANY level. Skill and experience.

Builds do not exist without player skill, unless they copy/paste someone else's build. Assuming they AREN'T doing that, creating a build IS skill. There exist very few, if any, BUILD ISSUES that translate to game difficulty, that aren't also skill issues. Because the skill to know what your build can't do is.....a skill.


And absolutely, 100% YES, "any budget" is a SKILL. I didn't say "tackle all content at any budget"....I simply said crafting a BUILD at any budget. And obviously using said build. Not all builds or budgets are created equally, but the knowledge to do so and recognize the limitations are most certainly skills rather than build issues. What do you do to get through Act 1? What's your progression? What's the next item you require to improve? How do you overcome the resistance issues from Act 5 into Act 6. How do you overcome the gap in difficulty from Act 10 to mapping? ALL of this is building at ALL budgets, for the content you are attempting to tackle.


With your incorrect analysis, you actually hit the nail on the head: when someone claims its a "build issue"....they are almost ALWAYS wrong. The TRUTH is that it is a build LIMITATION, brought on almost certainly by a lack of knowledge and therefore skill. That's why these forums are full of people who complain about things or ask for "build help": they do not have the knowledge base or skill to improve it themselves. It is not a foundational issue of the "BUILD" being broken in any way.


A build that can't handle reflect, but the player knows this and rerolls over reflect mods.....DOESN'T have a build issue. It is merely a build that can't do reflect content. That is the limitation in the build, it isn't an issue or problem with the build. Builds should never be good at every single possible thing (except with extreme investment).

Here it is in plain english:

Knowledge = understanding of mechanics
Skill = application of knowledge

Creating a build, at any stage, is a skill. It relies on your understanding of what your choices are doing and WILL do when faced with game content. That's all there is to it. If its a "build issue", it is ALSO a skill issue and actually more heavily weighted on the latter.

That's why we have wildly different performing builds, even within the same build type: because we have players with wildly different skill levels.

True "build issues" that aren't built upon knowledge nor skill are extremely rare. This is where "DoT damage cap" or bugs would fall. Things beyond any possible amount of player control.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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You’ve built your entire reply on redefinition, not refutation.
If you define everything as a “skill,” then naturally everything becomes a “skill issue” by design. But that’s not analysis, it’s tautology. It explains nothing and can’t be tested.

Saying “knowledge = skill, therefore every limitation = skill issue” just collapses the distinction between ability, resources, and systemic constraints. By that logic, even market RNG or item scarcity would be “skill issues,” since trading and luck also rely on “knowledge.”

My point, which you keep sliding away from: acknowledging structural or budget limitations doesn’t imply incompetence. It’s the recognition of tradeoffs that separates experienced players from beginners. That’s why people engineer build weaknesses they can consciously avoid instead of pretending omnipotence.

You’re right that knowledge and experience are parts of skill. But that doesn’t erase the existence of build-level constraints. Some mechanics, mod combinations, and budgets create literal incompatibilities, not because the player “lacks skill,” but because tradeoffs exist.

The point was never “skill doesn’t matter.” It’s that not every constraint is caused by a lack of it.

If you have to redefine words until that distinction disappears, you’re no longer describing reality, just protecting a premise.

I see a couple of people here arguing as if:
A) every T17 mod breaks your build and/or
B) any map mod that break a build is bad and/or
C) fails to mention that MOST are just punishing mods you CAN run, but at the cost to your speed/comfort/portals

A) It may be that 1% of builds can do all mods, but who cares. Most builds can do most mods - you just need to read and roll (not necessarily in that order).

B) PoE is a knowledge game. If you refuse to engage with map mods, it won't matter much until reds. But for the most lucrative content, guess what, it matters every map you roll!

C) I personally always choose to roll over a lot of mods that I could run, cus I can't be bothered with those mods. The trade-off? I get less loot, because I prefer my comfort/not dying etc. And that's a fair trade-off.

Anyways, I know that camps on this topic is quite set in their ways.
But this was my 2 cents on why I think there's a place for the current T17 mods, and might be in part why GGG feels so too.

GL at league start all!

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

Be happy that you are a new player - you are playing the easy mode already. You wouldn't have lasted one league where we used Exalts on maps

Even the easy mode appears to be too hard across multiple instances.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

I don't want to use my chaos orbs on a t17, because its a waste of currency.

It's not a waste of currency. It's also pretty much a you problem if you don't want to spend currency, or can't spend the currency, to reroll your maps and not the fault of t17 maps.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Yep, I don't have multiple mirrors to spend on a build. The moment I see expensive uniques,forbidden flame/flesh or simplex amulet or other insane crafted gear I just stop looking at that PoB lol

Like can a build just have normal items instead of using all these fancy expensive ones? I don't wanna buy a 300 div heist amulet. Or 100 div jewels. Or a 200 div Mageblood. Expecting a normal player to be able to buy all these(or craft them, somehow) is insanity to me.

Except you do not need to have multiple mirrors for a good functioning build and a minimalistic well optimized build. Even normal items can be good and perform amazing without getting you broke lol
Especially these days with multiple mechanics and how dirt cheap items are it's hard to not have something better than day one pos campaign ground loot, especially if you play a league for days.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

....and yet you yourself have been playing this game that has had that "poor design" for what, at least 7 years now? 7 years on a single, poorly designed game? Nope. That is pure gaslighting and hyperbole.

I would much rather have player penalties on map mods than have more random player penalties on monster effects themselves, like many other games do and like what OG Archnemesis and the "olden days" gave us.

But mods that act on players are ALWAYS there, in all games...just in a different form.



If the entire game worked like Delirium, the game systems would be FAR more boring and less "customizable". It would simply be dps checks across the board. It homogenizes everything

So what? This game has/had a number of poorly designed elements, that doesn't mean that it's bad in its entirety. There are tons of good aspects that compensate for its flaws. And it's never been that much of an issue with T16 maps since the number of problematic mods was lower and the amount of rerolling needed wasn't as high. I still had plenty of cases where i got brick mods 10 times in a row rolling a map and felt like vomiting every time that happened but those were exceptions. With T17 it's standard.

Pointing out problems with the game isn't the end of the world you know? Lots of people, me included, have been complaining about the shitty trade system for a decade. GGG kept plugging their ears until some day they suddenly had a revelation and finally solved it. Maybe that would have happened without us complaining about it, maybe not, but pointing out problems isn't something bad in general. I don't have much hope but maybe GGG will someday have another revelation and fix this issue as well.

I don't see how the game would be any more boring with mods that actually require the player to take a step back and consider, use his experience to determine whether or not his build can handle those mods rather than just going "oh brick mod, reroll".
The fact that the "decision" regarding those brick mods get outsourced to third party programs should tell you how dumb this is. These mods add nothing to the gameplay, they are just another nuisance for the sake of draining currency.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

And it's never been that much of an issue with T16 maps since the number of problematic mods was lower and the amount of rerolling needed wasn't as high. I still had plenty of cases where i got brick mods 10 times in a row rolling a map and felt like vomiting every time that happened but those were exceptions. With T17 it's standard.

The thing with T17 map mods is that most of them don’t actually brick a build. They might make things harder or more annoying, but they rarely make content unplayable by breaking a buld. Compared to T16 maps, the difference isn’t that huge. Can’t run a certain mod? Just roll past it and move on. And if you’re finding a wide gap in the number of mods you can't run, like you're constantly getting farmed by pixels, it’s probably time to take a step back and figure out what’s missing in your build. Because in most cases, the mods just add difficulty by buffing enemies or weakening the player. Very few actually shut a build down completely.

Even the few mods that could be considered build-breaking like reflect can usually be handled with a simple fix. “No regen” or “no leech” might be more troublesome, especially for some builds, but there are still ways around them in most cases. And really, how many mods are there that truly brick a build? Just a handful. “Reduced chance to block” can be a problem for block-based builds that collapse the moment they fail to block, but that’s more of a lack of layered defenses than a mod issue. Worst case, just reroll that one mod and go again.

"Reduced action speed" is annoying for most builds that aren't Tricksters or Juggernauts, but again, it just slows the pace. It's not game breaking. And then there’s stuff like "Area contains whatever Pinnacle boss mechanic", which sounds dramatic but usually just means a little bit of extra bloat. It’s not build, breaking, it’s just something you have to pay attention to and not idle-walk into. Any build can do that, in fact it's just a matter of paying attention to the game.

When you look at the very small number of mods that can truly break a build, it’s actually pretty hard to hit those repeatedly. The idea that you need to reroll maps 200 times just to find one that's "playable" is wildly exaggerated. If a character consistently can't handle T17 content, it’s far more likely that the build just isn’t ready yet, rather than T17 being unfairly or bad designed.

At the end of the day, if someone can’t run T17 maps and their excuse is “too many build-breaking mods,” or "cringe", when most of those are easy to bypass or deal with, that’s a pretty clear sign the build simply isn’t up to the task. The same thing applied back when T16 maps were the endgame, people used to complain that those were too hard too. But a lot of the time, it’s just players trying to run content that’s beyond their gear or power level, getting deleted by the first screen full of mobs, and then blaming the game for it. That’s really what’s going on.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Ah yes, I guess playing since Prophecy league means I'm a new player.

If playing for a decade hasn’t led to noticeable improvement or even a solid grasp of the game’s basic fundamental systems, then functionally, it’s no different from being a new player who’s completely overwhelmed by the game’s complexity and lacking the experience to navigate it.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

Just roll past it and move on.

That is a way to deal with the problem, it's not an argument that there is no problem. I want the problem gone for good. I already know how to deal with it, don't need you for that.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

Just roll past it and move on.

That is a way to deal with the problem, it's not an argument that there is no problem. I want the problem gone for good. I already know how to deal with it, don't need you for that.

And this is exactly why threads about t17s/rolling them and their mods keep popping up. People want these maps to be improved, because right now its better for me to just sell them than try to roll them. If I try to roll one I'm just deleting chaos orbs.