T17 maps and modifiers are THE WORST thing that happened to POE

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

I think main problem is the feel that you can run T17, but wasting 20c and time to reroll is annoying. For example i can't kill Uber Sirus, i am a bad player, but i don't care, ubers should be strong. But with T17 i want make less rerolling.

And because of this i wrote "nerf mods, increase base mob difficulty", because in this case i feel that i am weak, not "this stupid mod again appears on map".

Well here's the thing about t17s: they were designed specifically to be a chaos sink. That is a huge part of their design. So that is unlikely to change. But yes, as with nearly all things PoE, making rerolling an easier process would be welcome. And this game REALLY REALLY needed a chaos sink somewhere. And where better to put it than high end content to put an additional "cost" on being a high tier character that already makes a lot more currency than other players. That way, it DOESN'T negatively impact anyone that isn't currently at that level or likely doesn't have disposable chaos yet.

Removing the rerolling itself is pretty anti-PoE, as every aspect of gameplay requires some form of "rerolling".


That feeling you have about "this stupid mod" is different for every single player. It's an "issue" that is also a non-issue, and a completely unsolvable issue. What is impossible for you, may be completely negligible to the next player. That's just the nature of the game, and has been true of ALL map mods for the entire existence of the mapping system.

It seems harsh, but its really just a "deal with it" moment. There are three choices available to you as a player:
1) Wallow in misery and complain
2) Get over it and move forward
3) Ignore it and settle for running t16s instead.

Whenever we are faced with new challenges, there is frustration and negative feelings. Always, without fail. No one can "force" you to overcome these feelings, nor should things always be easy enough to NOT foster these feelings in the first place. Maturity and growth comes from overcoming and moving past these feelings.




We could debate each and every individual t17 mod, the pros and the cons, the builds that can handle it versus the builds that cannot, etc. If one seems arbitrarily "out there" where it disproportionately cancels out too many builds....THEN we can complain here on the forum about that particular mod. But blanket "T17s suck" are generally built upon nonsense.

As an example...the generations old debate over "reflect".
1)Shuts down a huge number of builds
2)BUT we have numerous ways to overcome it
3)Do you get irritated and mad and complain about it, or do you utilize the solutions available to overcome it....or do you reroll over it. All these choices are available. But its the existence of such a mod that makes you have to play with an active mind.
4) Having it appear randomly on random monsters was a PROBLEM because we had no way to "solve" reflect in those situations. As such...that was removed from the game a decade ago, as a true design flaw. But the map mod remained.

Makes sense to call out skill issue on the community if literally a build (and the ascendancy) can run every single mod on a T17 while other classes have to reroll them. This is indeed a design choice and not a skill or build issue.

I run them myself but I would not enjoy them as an not OP class in the end.
And yes you can roll over them frequently but in the end there is no point to play something else if you wanna earn currency faster. If you don´t have to reroll mods you run more maps and can make more currency - thats the only reason you would ever run T17s in the end.

If someone says they are running them for the challenge yeah I don´t think so :)

Map mods should affect mobs, not players. Having map mods that disable fundamental build mechanics are just shitty design and we all know the only reason this shit is in the game is to burn currency.

Reflect, no leech, no recovery, no regen, 90% reduced defenses, deal no damage, reduced action speed all these mapmods are just inherently bad, annoying and unfun and when there are builds/ascendancies that can ignore part of those they warp the entire meta. See Trickster.

Delirium mods for Simulacrum are an example how a healthy mod pool looks like. Push the numbers higher if need be but all those forced reroll mods should just go to hell.
People arguing with "lol just use regex" should get their brains checked. If you have to use third party tools just to do the basic gameplay loop then it IS the games fault.

the hyperbole is real with the "no t17 mods" crowd...

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TayPoE#6379 wrote:

Makes sense to call out skill issue on the community if literally a build (and the ascendancy) can run every single mod on a T17 while other classes have to reroll them. This is indeed a design choice and not a skill or build issue.

This is true, but not to the level that others gaslight these threads with. Trickster is an outlier and needs to be balanced, sure. But this idea that "one build negates all t17 mods and no one else is capable of that" is just plain wrong.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

Map mods should affect mobs, not players. Having map mods that disable fundamental build mechanics are just shitty design and we all know the only reason this shit is in the game is to burn currency.

Reflect, no leech, no recovery, no regen, 90% reduced defenses, deal no damage, reduced action speed all these mapmods are just inherently bad, annoying and unfun and when there are builds/ascendancies that can ignore part of those they warp the entire meta. See Trickster.

Delirium mods for Simulacrum are an example how a healthy mod pool looks like. Push the numbers higher if need be but all those forced reroll mods should just go to hell.
People arguing with "lol just use regex" should get their brains checked. If you have to use third party tools just to do the basic gameplay loop then it IS the games fault.

....and yet you yourself have been playing this game that has had that "poor design" for what, at least 7 years now? 7 years on a single, poorly designed game? Nope. That is pure gaslighting and hyperbole.

I would much rather have player penalties on map mods than have more random player penalties on monster effects themselves, like many other games do and like what OG Archnemesis and the "olden days" gave us.

But mods that act on players are ALWAYS there, in all games...just in a different form.



If the entire game worked like Delirium, the game systems would be FAR more boring and less "customizable". It would simply be dps checks across the board. It homogenizes everything

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TayPoE#6379 wrote:

Makes sense to call out skill issue on the community if literally a build (and the ascendancy) can run every single mod on a T17 while other classes have to reroll them. This is indeed a design choice and not a skill or build issue.

It has always been this way, certain map modifiers clash with specific builds, while others breeze through them effortlessly. Rerolling maps has been part of the endgame since forever, and Tier 17 hasn’t really changed that core loop.

If players struggle with the new endgame due to poorly optimized builds and then blame T17 maps or call them “cringe,” that’s simply a skill issue. Most T17 mods are basic skill checks any well-built character can handle. Aside from the action speed mod, which slightly favors Juggernauts or Tricksters, there’s little that truly restricts builds.

Even the regular mod pool only contains a few that can actually brick a build, and hitting them repeatedly is statistically unlikely, unless you’re already skipping harder mods because your build can’t handle them. If someone insists on running T17 maps pure white because the default difficulty feels too high, even with the option to reduce difficulty via scarabs, the issue isn’t the game. It’s an underdeveloped build not yet ready for true endgame content.

Sinking "too much" currency into rolling “suitable” maps or ignoring how map mods work has always been a skill issue. Tier 17 maps simply highlight whether a build is truly endgame-ready. Regular T16s, especially low-risk alc and go maps, haven’t represented the pinnacle of difficulty for a long time anymore, they’re just early endgame stepping and atlas progression, but not true endgame.

In the end, if a player makes poor build choices, the player is to blame, not the game.
PoE offers countless ways to mitigate difficulty or even counter so-called “build-breaking” mods. Failing to grasp these fundamentals at this stage is, quite simply, a skill issue.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

In the end, if a player makes poor build choices, the player is to blame, not the game.
PoE offers countless ways to mitigate difficulty or even counter so-called “build-breaking” mods. Failing to grasp these fundamentals at this stage is, quite simply, a skill issue.

What's also completely removed from this argument is the fact that, in many cases (though certainly not all), you can EASILY have a few extra gear pieces and skills that you swap for certain mods. Would take less than a minute of prep, and previously un-runnable mods become runnable.

How much do you want to bet that players in this thread (and others) don't even consider or try this at all?


Gear and gem swapping used to be ubiquitous: tailoring your specific build to the content you are running. And its not that its more "fun" to NOT do these things, nor is it really a function of tedium.....its plain and simple laziness and refusal from the modern gamers.

How many builds and players completely ignore the fact that they have a weapon swap where they could set up an entirely different skillset within the same build archetype? Maybe you change a ring or an amulet and you end up with a completely different build capable of different mods. No passive changes needed.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

Most T17 mods are basic skill checks any well-built character can handle.

Ah yes, the good old "Do no damage for 3 seconds every 10 seconds". What is the counterplay to this? What kind of god gamer skills do I need? Oh that's right, there is no counter. Why waste chaos orbs when I can just sell the map to someone else?

And other build-disabling mods like crippling your defenses, or "take % damage minions and totems take" so any minion build is disabled. Very deep,complex game design. Such skill very wow. /s

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

Map mods should affect mobs, not players. Having map mods that disable fundamental build mechanics are just shitty design and we all know the only reason this shit is in the game is to burn currency.

Reflect, no leech, no recovery, no regen, 90% reduced defenses, deal no damage, reduced action speed all these mapmods are just inherently bad, annoying and unfun and when there are builds/ascendancies that can ignore part of those they warp the entire meta. See Trickster.

Delirium mods for Simulacrum are an example how a healthy mod pool looks like. Push the numbers higher if need be but all those forced reroll mods should just go to hell.
People arguing with "lol just use regex" should get their brains checked. If you have to use third party tools just to do the basic gameplay loop then it IS the games fault.

Exactly this, regex is part of the problem not a solution. You shouldn't need to filter out the 95% cringe mods just to roll one map. This is a low-effort,uncreative chaos sink. They could just design something else to spend your chaos orbs on. Anything. "You have to waste your chaos orbs for muh economy balance" is no excuse.