[Feedback] Giga-Nerf Gem Levels on Gear in Patch 0.4.0

"

rifraf-_-#9478 wrote:

Guys. Let's not result into the extremes here. Balance can be achieved by tweaking and iterating. If we were to straight up remove everything exciting in the game we would have Diablo 4 😂

Well, I did say we should still have +level as a corruption type mod.

But having it as a regular mod in a modpool is a problem, because as it operates in PoE (especially in PoE 2) it will ALWAYS be BiS. Having something be BiS for every and any build is pure bad design with no recovery.

That type of mod essentially invalidates all items that don't have it, almost without fail.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

rifraf-_-#9478 wrote:

Guys. Let's not result into the extremes here. Balance can be achieved by tweaking and iterating. If we were to straight up remove everything exciting in the game we would have Diablo 4 😂

Well, I did say we should still have +level as a corruption type mod.

But having it as a regular mod in a modpool is a problem, because as it operates in PoE (especially in PoE 2) it will ALWAYS be BiS. Having something be BiS for every and any build is pure bad design with no recovery.

That type of mod essentially invalidates all items that don't have it, almost without fail.

I like that idea. It can be an exciting slam moment. But I'm not satisfied in making base loot less exciting by removing +skills completely.

What if we kept the generic and very powerful +melee/projectile skills on uniques and for slamming while introducing a less powerful, more specific mod for base items? For example, +X on specific skills.

"

rifraf-_-#9478 wrote:

What if we kept the generic and very powerful +melee/projectile skills on uniques and for slamming while introducing a less powerful, more specific mod for base items? For example, +X on specific skills.

Yes it could actually work if they only kept specific tag-related +skills (with a smaller value). It would even be quite cool to have more skill-specific random modifiers too across the mod pool. Like maybe instead of just a +1 to melee, there could exist an entire range of mods that are "+3 to xskill (chosen from melee skills)". That way, rather than being a ubiquitously sought mod, it would represent a very powerful but RARE mod for specific builds.

But there are so many other mods that add value to items: losing one wouldn't change much "excitement". Especially when we pretty much know for a fact that more and new mods WILL be coming with nearly every season. As they have in PoE 1 in some form nearly every league since....forever.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

rifraf-_-#9478 wrote:

What if we kept the generic and very powerful +melee/projectile skills on uniques and for slamming while introducing a less powerful, more specific mod for base items? For example, +X on specific skills.

Yes it could actually work if they only kept specific tag-related +skills (with a smaller value). It would even be quite cool to have more skill-specific random modifiers too across the mod pool. Like maybe instead of just a +1 to melee, there could exist an entire range of mods that are "+3 to xskill (chosen from melee skills)". That way, rather than being a ubiquitously sought mod, it would represent a very powerful but RARE mod for specific builds.

I mean, sounds good to me. lol

I didn't know we're getting more mods each season. I only play PoE2. But in any case, + to Xskill sounds cool to me so if we were to push for a change, this could be a decent alternative.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Makes me truly wonder how much you ACTUALLY played (and understood) Diablo 2....especially pre-runeword D2.

I would wager my entire networth that I have more hours in D2 than you.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

because +skills has NEVER been "the absolute most desired mod".

It asbolutely was. And the tree skill was based on this. You would unlock a node and instantly get boosted by your +1 supports. It's so great and in your face that you can't even see it. It the vertebrae structure of Diablo II but you can go on and keep trolling.

The proof is in the pudding. The absolute best items were torches and Annihilus and these were absolutely mandatory.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

In case you weren't aware, the SOJ becoming the default "currency" of D2 had pretty much NOTHING to do with its +skills. It was because of duping, quest bugs, gambling, and then later on its ties to Annihilus.

I wonder why people chose to dupe that item right, of all the items in the pool. At this point, if this is not blatant trolling coming from you I will just assume you are incapable of understanding why D2 was so successful but then again, this is not surprising coming from this forum.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

rifraf-_-#9478 wrote:

What if we kept the generic and very powerful +melee/projectile skills on uniques and for slamming while introducing a less powerful, more specific mod for base items? For example, +X on specific skills.

Yes it could actually work if they only kept specific tag-related +skills (with a smaller value). It would even be quite cool to have more skill-specific random modifiers too across the mod pool. Like maybe instead of just a +1 to melee, there could exist an entire range of mods that are "+3 to xskill (chosen from melee skills)". That way, rather than being a ubiquitously sought mod, it would represent a very powerful but RARE mod for specific builds.

Sounds interestnig. You can restrict it even more by allowing +level to persistent skills on certain item only for example body armour. And +level melee/projectile/spell on let's say amulets only. Weapons/Shields then should provide +level to specific related skills.

OR

Add some spice, remove +skills entirely and replace it with skill specific mods (+X to Fireball damage, +X Fireball projectile speed etc) and create currency (or crafting bench) to add specific group of mods (Adds random Fireball modifier) and Omens to increase chances of getting desired mods (Omen which guarantee that next skill specific mod will be Area of Effect for example).

"

Oinkaments#6390 wrote:

.

ho hum.....where to start here?

1) Soj Duping: was popular BECAUSE the soj was associated with specific bugs unique to IT. Not other rings. Not because of its stats. Additionally because it was far easier to farm than other unique rings that held ANY potential value, because of its low item level that coincided with farming it from Andy runs.

2) +Skills.....you are just plain wrong. I don't know what you are trying to prove, nor do I need the tens of thousands of hours I have in D2 to KNOW that you are wrong. Even your descriptions of WHY are wrong lol. You describe a subjective feeling YOU personally have with +skills....as if that translates to value of any type. Soj HAD intrinsic value because it was a +1skill ring (and the mana was nice for sorcs), but that didn't make it the BEST ring nor the BEST stat. It's just a good stat.

3) Your networth: I'll take you up on that. Right now. I am 45 years old. The first REAL game I played with any significant amount of time was D2. Starting at its very first release. I still own the 1.0 CD. I have never stopped playing. I have played every single mod that exists for the game. You name it, I've played it. I have built and released my own mods for the game. I have participated in ladder tournaments since they were first introduced (not much, but at least in the early days). I am NOT someone who plays MANY games, I find a few I like and I play them for...decades. D2 is one, Command and Conquer games are another, PoE is a third. Not much else has ever taken me for a spin. So yea....I'll take your wager.

4) The "Best items were torches and annihiluses"......lmfao, no......no they were not. Are not. Not even at their release. At MOST they were status symbols, but they were NOT the "best items" in any shape and form. They are GOOD items, don't get me wrong, as they should be given that they come from uber content. But BEST ITEMS? not even CLOSE.

5) You REALLY should have stopped when I first called you out....because with this new post it doesn't look good. You picked the absolute WRONG person to fight with, and I say that with as much modesty as I can muster.

6) Where you are CLEARLY getting hung up is NOT that +skills was most desired....but that alternative gear simply didn't exist for many builds for certain slots. Great example is the charms you mentioned: there existed NO large charms BESIDES torch, and no charm existed that had better stats in general than what you got. So it was the ONLY choice in its category. Same with +tab charms. And the annihilus. When it is the ONLY choice.....then its the obvious choice. We see that too in certain gear items, like the sorceress weapon that was the ONLY weapon in the game that offered its kit that was basically BiS for every single sorceress build.

*Ed: I also forgot that sojs were involved in the socket recipes AND other recipes in the cube, which helped them retain value as a currency too. Again....totally unrelated to +skills.

All this D2 talk is totally irrelevant.....because +skills in D2 is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from +skills in PoE.

Because of how mechanics work in PoE. Because of how skills work in PoE. Because of how flat damage and damage effectiveness works in PoE. NONE of which translates from D2 skill system and +skills except in rare cases like, traditionally, lightning skills as a sorceress getting the MOST out of +skills.

So ultimately this D2 angle just doesn't even play in the same field. And the ONLY argument was "D2 did it"....which isn't even an argument.

Also, as my previous post and this one illustrates.......the comment that sparked this was and remains a GROSS oversimplification.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

All this D2 talk is totally irrelevant.....because +skills in D2 is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from +skills in PoE.

Because of how mechanics work in PoE. Because of how skills work in PoE. Because of how flat damage and damage effectiveness works in PoE. NONE of which translates from D2 skill system and +skills except in rare cases like, traditionally, lightning skills as a sorceress getting the MOST out of +skills.

So ultimately this D2 angle just doesn't even play in the same field. And the ONLY argument was "D2 did it"....which isn't even an argument.

It's 100% relevant since it comes directly from that game.

The implementation is different and this is where you could feel free to criticize or ask for changes. I will repeat it again because you seem to be oblivious. People in this thread are actually asking for the DELETION of the +skill mechanic.

+Skill mechanic is the ABSOLUTE foundation on which D2 was built on and POE2 should 100% conserve this mechanic unless if your goal is to destroy the franchise like people did with D3 and D4.

As for rings being better than soj, yes I'm aware of that. I'm bringing SOJ as currency in vanilla because people do recognize that +Skill mechanic is the GOAT. A spell caster will prefer a FCR ring over a SOJ. But overall, +Skill mechanic is the absolute vertabrae of Diablo 2. If you use anything else than a Mara Kaleidoscope you are just being a contrarian unless you have a better +2 Skiller ammy with other good mods.

+Skill charms in PVP are by far the most absolute important items that are sought, especially life skillers.

As for hours, I also have the original D2 CD and I'm 47 years old. We can compare all that good stuff if you want but I'm pretty sure I have over 30k hours on D2.

"

Oinkaments#6390 wrote:

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

All this D2 talk is totally irrelevant.....because +skills in D2 is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from +skills in PoE.

Because of how mechanics work in PoE. Because of how skills work in PoE. Because of how flat damage and damage effectiveness works in PoE. NONE of which translates from D2 skill system and +skills except in rare cases like, traditionally, lightning skills as a sorceress getting the MOST out of +skills.

So ultimately this D2 angle just doesn't even play in the same field. And the ONLY argument was "D2 did it"....which isn't even an argument.

It's 100% relevant since it comes directly from that game.

The implementation is different and this is where you could feel free to criticize or ask for changes. I will repeat it again because you seem to be oblivious. People in this thread are actually asking for the DELETION of the +skill mechanic.

+Skill mechanic is the ABSOLUTE foundation on which D2 was built on and POE2 should 100% conserve this mechanic unless if your goal is to destroy the franchise like people did with D3 and D4.

As for rings being better than soj, yes I'm aware of that. I'm bringing SOJ as currency in vanilla because people do recognize that +Skill mechanic is the GOAT. A spell caster will prefer a FCR ring over a SOJ. But overall, +Skill mechanic is the absolute vertabrae of Diablo 2. If you use anything else than a Mara Kaleidoscope you are just being a contrarian.

+Skill charms in PVP are by far the most absolute important items that are sought, especially life skillers.

As for hours, I also have the original D2 CD and I'm 47 years old. We can compare all that good stuff if you want but I'm pretty sure I have over 30k hours on D2.

rofl.

Like all cars have wheels and wheels come from the same first car?