Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

2) The player does not get the message and keeps dying repeatedly without improving his character or adapting the difficulty.
Here the XP penalty is needed in order to amplify the message the player is clearly not understanding. The message being: Improve your character or lower the difficulty.

Why is this message "needed"? What great harm is being caused by the player continuing to die repeatedly. Maybe they're having fun and want to overcome the challenge with the character they have?

OMG, we can't have that! Players playing the way they want, that would be madness!

So repeatedly dying and not progressing is fun? Ok, then do it. Nobody is stopping you. Just don't complain about the logical outcome. The game is trying to tell you that you won't progress this way.

Once again you are misusing the word challenge. The mapping endgame loop is no challenge. It is farming currency. Why do you keep trying to change the game into another type of game? Go play the other type of game if you so clearly want to.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Once again. I think you are just not understanding what type of game this is. Improving your build/character is the main activity. Everything evolves around this. Maps are here for farming. Not for challenges. A map is something you open to mindlessly farm currency/equipment for your build. If you want a challenge you attempt a pinnacle boss.

Absolutely nobody says: I want a challenge. Lets open a map.

If you die in 1 out of 4 maps, you most definitely are doing something wrong. I would expect to maybe die once in a 100 maps. Or maybe even less.

If you only die 1 in 100 maps then maps suck and need a serious overhaul. Maybe replace them with a giant pachinko machine that spits out rewards. That would at least be engaging.

No absolutely not. Maps and XP penalty are fine. You are just playing the wrong game. And you keep refusing to see this. You try to change a game, that simply does not work as you want it to. Stop it. Go play something else that is designed the way you want it to be.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

If someone keeps bashing their head against a wall and keep failing it is not on me or the game. It is simply on them. And apparently the penalty not being hard enough for them to understand that this should not be happening. That they should do something else.

Are you even playing PoE 2 or just rambling about nothing of substance?

The only lvl 100 character you have is an RF build. Your second highest character is a lvl 99 Necro with Minions. In fact, your most played build is Minions. Most of your other characters are below lvl 96.

Apparently, you are such a god gamer that you mainly play Minions, the easiest playstyle there is. Even in PoE 2, I was much, much faster leveling a Warrior with (nerfed) Popcorn SRS + Arsonists than any other method, without any Minion passives.

Get off your high horse and pick a better base to stand on. A Minion player talking shit to other people about death penalty is quite something, really.

I do understand that this is a very long thread already and you did not read every post. I would not have either. In one of the post I explicitly stated that I am a bad player. That is one of the reasons why I like PoE so much. Because in this type of game one can overcome their own shortcomings by simply out gearing the content or by using an OP build. Everyone, a pro god gamer and a complete noob can accomplish the same things in PoE. And that is great. A noob like me just needs more time for it and a different approach. But it is possible.

Your "argument" is simply BS.

And even though I already explained it in another post, there is no high horse. I do not want to and also cannot gatekeep anyone out of anything. And why would I? Players are doing this themself and falsely blaming the game for it.

That is the part I am arguing against. If someone hits a wall and cannot progress, there is very simple solution for this. Improve your character. That's all.

But that is just not what people want to hear. People just want to jump to the end without progression. When the game tells them "Hey look, your character is not yet strong enough for that difficulty." they simply want to ignore this and bash their head against the wall. And when the logical outcome, not progressing, occurs they cry in the forum for making their own bad decision and trying to change the game into another type of game.

Games like this already exists and they are boring AF. PoE 1 and 2 are very popular and both have this penalty. Why did it work for PoE 1 so well? If it was that bad nobody should be playing it anymore, right?

That's the game. Take it or leave it. Just stop crying.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

That is the part I am arguing against. If someone hits a wall and cannot progress, there is very simple solution for this. Improve your character. That's all.

I don't think you understand what "hitting a wall" means. There's no improvement to be made, as progress is locked, and said progress would be required to overcome that wall.

But, I'll just point towards your own admission.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

PoE 1 and 2 are very popular and both have this penalty. Why did it work for PoE 1 so well? If it was that bad nobody should be playing it anymore, right?

Are you actually trying to make the argument that the EXP death penalty is a defining feature of PoE? :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

It sucked then, it sucks now. It's not necessary at all and achieves the exact opposite. Players do not like having their time wasted. Otherwise people wouldn't be whining about the huge maps of PoE 2.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

I don't think you understand what "hitting a wall" means. There's no improvement to be made, as progress is locked, and said progress would be required to overcome that wall.

But, I'll just point towards your own admission.

You simply choose not wanting to understand.

Never is there any situation where you absolutely cannot progress. There is absolutely always a map difficulty or area where you can farm currency or potential upgrades. If you do not do this, then it is your decision not to try to improve your character. There is always a step back in difficulty. If you keep dying in T10 you can try T9. If you still die you can try T8 ... and so on. You simply do not want to and therefor decide not to try to improve your character. Even if you die in T1 you can go back to Act 3 cruel.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Are you actually trying to make the argument that the EXP death penalty is a defining feature of PoE? :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

It sucked then, it sucks now. It's not necessary at all and achieves the exact opposite. Players do not like having their time wasted. Otherwise people wouldn't be whining about the huge maps of PoE 2.

I am not saying that is one of the core reasons why PoE 1 is successful. I am making the argument that if XP penalty was really as bad as people try to say here, then PoE 1 should not have been as successful, correct? Because why would a game with such a bad bad system be successful?

You guys just want rewards for free, without putting in any work. And changes that lead to that will ruin the game. Like many games before.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

So repeatedly dying and not progressing is fun? Ok, then do it. Nobody is stopping you. Just don't complain about the logical outcome. The game is trying to tell you that you won't progress this way.

The logical consequence is I keep dying and don't progress until I win. Losing XP and moving backwards is not.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Once again you are misusing the word challenge. The mapping endgame loop is no challenge. It is farming currency. Why do you keep trying to change the game into another type of game? Go play the other type of game if you so clearly want to.

Nobody knows what type of game this is yet. It's been out in Early Access for a few weeks. I could turn that around and say it sounds like you would be happier playing Path of Exile - Good news! That game still exists for you.

And if the mapping is really that easy, that's another thing that needs to be looked at. You can farm currency in a challenging environment. Except that they CAN'T make it challenging because of the death penalties. Without the penalty, every map could be a challenge.

That's how the penalties hurt the game.
They have to make the main loop of the game easier because of them.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

No absolutely not. Maps and XP penalty are fine. You are just playing the wrong game. And you keep refusing to see this. You try to change a game, that simply does not work as you want it to. Stop it. Go play something else that is designed the way you want it to be.

Or, I can play this game, and point out the design flaws in it, and help it become a better game. You know, the whole point of Early Access: getting player feedback.

Most people playing this game will have never played Path of Exile and so don't have the baggage of thinking things should be done the way they always have been done. Keeping a feature simply because that's the way it was in a different game isn't a very good reason.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

That is the part I am arguing against. If someone hits a wall and cannot progress, there is very simple solution for this. Improve your character. That's all.

That's true. An XP penalty does NOTHING to help with that. You can't progress until you can clear the content. No need for punishment to force them to lose time simply to get back to where they were.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

But that is just not what people want to hear. People just want to jump to the end without progression. When the game tells them "Hey look, your character is not yet strong enough for that difficulty." they simply want to ignore this and bash their head against the wall. And when the logical outcome, not progressing, occurs they cry in the forum for making their own bad decision and trying to change the game into another type of game.

Removing the XP penalty isn't going to help people progress. The only thing that makes that happen is clearing the content. For some reason the thought of that seems to scare you, or at least you think it's a Bad Thing(tm) for people to progress that haven't been sufficiently punished along the way.

PoE 2 is very popular because it is new and more accessible than Path of Exile. Death penalties are a holdover from a bygone era that need to be left in the past. They serve no purpose in a game that naturally limits progression simply by the challenges that must be overcome.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You guys just want rewards for free, without putting in any work. And changes that lead to that will ruin the game. Like many games before.

You keep saying this, as if beating the content is "free" and requires no work. The challenge is still there, and still must be overcome.

Path of Exile was successful in spite of it's flaws. And if they want PoE 2 to have the numbers it can, some of those flaws need to be addressed, or they'll go back to PoE 1 numbers.

I mean I was playing Elden Ring and I couldn't get past a boss, they should just remove it and refund me the souls I lost along the way. There shouldn't be hard mobs killing me on the way back to the boss I'm already beating my head against the wall as is. It's not fun to me, and I'm entitled to experience everything even if I'm not the target audience, so change it.

I also love baseball, so I went to Fenway Park and explained to them that just because I have no eye-hand coordination, can't swing a bat, can't run, can't throw, that I deserve to be on that team. I, ME, am owed the opportunity to experience what other players do. I'm going to my local congressman and you will see me leading off next opening day.


What you silly geese don't seem to understand, is just because someone is lacking the skills to something, and unwilling to put in the effort to improve or learn about something, shouldn't exclude them from anything in life. Because I, me, and myself should not be wantonly discriminated against via the use of common sense practices. I mean it is just about 2025 after all.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

Or, I can play this game, and point out the design flaws in it, and help it become a better game. You know, the whole point of Early Access: getting player feedback.

It is not a design flaw. You just want it to be to change the game.

But there is no sense in trying to explain it again and again. You guys clearly already decided that you will absolutely under no circumstances want to understand.

But yea, go ahead, try to ruin it. If we are unlucky enough and GGG gives in a good game will die like so many others before.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

I am making the argument that if XP penalty was really as bad as people try to say here, then PoE 1 should not have been as successful, correct? Because why would a game with such a bad bad system be successful?

It's probably got to do with how you seemingly no longer have any idea what you are even arguing for or against. A single bad feature does not a game make. The penalty is shit, it just happens to be a good game that has it. PoE has as many flaws as it has upsides, but the EXP penalty is definitely an archaic anti-player feature.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You guys just want rewards for free, without putting in any work. And changes that lead to that will ruin the game. Like many games before.

You've been acting rather presumptuous and, frankly, quite insufferable this entire thread. All these "you guys suck" arguments are getting really tiresome. I've spent literal days worth of playtime farming rare item set pieces in Souls games, so you don't get to tell me how I want my "rewards for free".

I simply hate the EXP death penalty in ARPGs, and only because the inherent premise of that genre is grinding for upgrades. I definitely do not want to feel that my time is being wasted when I die, ESPECIALLY when it wasn't even my fault. In fact, it gets me to quit early every single time, if it happens too often.

Go play something more restrictive for a change that isn't easy faceroll builds, then come back to talk shit. I honestly can't take you seriously when all you do is babble nonsense from a high horse when you've never even engaged the hard content in a way where it would actually be challenging.

Like, seriously, the easiest builds I've ever played - I don't play meta slave builds - was Minions and Totems. Massive fucking difference in gameplay experience when you got multiple bodies to throw at a problem and you can focus on mechanics. And when you know that you are a bad player that needs such builds as a crutch to get anything done at all, then maybe it's time to realize when to shut it, instead of pretending you are better than everyone else.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

I am making the argument that if XP penalty was really as bad as people try to say here, then PoE 1 should not have been as successful, correct? Because why would a game with such a bad bad system be successful?

It's probably got to do with how you seemingly no longer have any idea what you are even arguing for or against. A single bad feature does not a game make. The penalty is shit, it just happens to be a good game that has it. PoE has as many flaws as it has upsides, but the EXP penalty is definitely an archaic anti-player feature.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You guys just want rewards for free, without putting in any work. And changes that lead to that will ruin the game. Like many games before.

You've been acting rather presumptuous and, frankly, quite insufferable this entire thread. All these "you guys suck" arguments are getting really tiresome. I've spent literal days worth of playtime farming rare item set pieces in Souls games, so you don't get to tell me how I want my "rewards for free".

I simply hate the EXP death penalty in ARPGs, and only because the inherent premise of that genre is grinding for upgrades. I definitely do not want to feel that my time is being wasted when I die, ESPECIALLY when it wasn't even my fault. In fact, it gets me to quit early every single time, if it happens too often.

Go play something more restrictive for a change that isn't easy faceroll builds, then come back to talk shit. I honestly can't take you seriously when all you do is babble nonsense from a high horse when you've never even engaged the hard content in a way where it would actually be challenging.

Like, seriously, the easiest builds I've ever played - I don't play meta slave builds - was Minions and Totems. Massive fucking difference in gameplay experience when you got multiple bodies to throw at a problem and you can focus on mechanics. And when you know that you are a bad player that needs such builds as a crutch to get anything done at all, then maybe it's time to realize when to shut it, instead of pretending you are better than everyone else.

Allow me to TLDR;


"Me, me, myself, I, I, me, I, me, I, how I feel, what I want, ME."

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Seanprice798#2395 wrote:

Allow me to TLDR

Mate, go bother someone else. Your bait is weak and rather boring.

There is no bait, it is literally the summation of every post you have made thus far. I laid out exactly what you are doing in my parody example, but you ignored that because I'm sure you realize it's too much of a parallel for how you act and what your entire argument is based off.

I'm not here to go back and forth with you. There is no having a "conversation" with your type. I'm going to go enjoy some Christmas festivities now, you have a great holiday sir.