Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

"

BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

You've been acting rather presumptuous and, frankly, quite insufferable this entire thread. All these "you guys suck" arguments are getting really tiresome. I've spent literal days worth of playtime farming rare item set pieces in Souls games, so you don't get to tell me how I want my "rewards for free".

I simply hate the EXP death penalty in ARPGs, and only because the inherent premise of that genre is grinding for upgrades. I definitely do not want to feel that my time is being wasted when I die, ESPECIALLY when it wasn't even my fault. In fact, it gets me to quit early every single time, if it happens too often.

Go play something more restrictive for a change that isn't easy faceroll builds, then come back to talk shit. I honestly can't take you seriously when all you do is babble nonsense from a high horse when you've never even engaged the hard content in a way where it would actually be challenging.

Like, seriously, the easiest builds I've ever played - I don't play meta slave builds - was Minions and Totems. Massive fucking difference in gameplay experience when you got multiple bodies to throw at a problem and you can focus on mechanics. And when you know that you are a bad player that needs such builds as a crutch to get anything done at all, then maybe it's time to realize when to shut it, instead of pretending you are better than everyone else.

You are just trying to get under my skin by misconstruing my words on purpose because you have no argument.

I was never on a high horse. I have never said that I was better. Nothing of the sort. On the contrary, I even said that I was a noob. But, if a noob like me can improve my character in SSF, that should show that everybody can do it.

I have only said that you guys choose to not improve your character because you do not want to. Instead you choose to do content your character is not yet strong enough for and then complain about not progressing. You want the game to change to fit your bad decisions.

Edit:
No worries, I will not respond anymore. That's like talking to a wall. It just does not make sense.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You are just trying to get under my skin by misconstruing my words on purpose because you have no argument.

No, you are the one who doesn't have one. You seem to think that character progression and EXP death penalty somehow go hand in hand, but they don't. It's a time waster, not a brick wall. You can't predict when some random bullshit like a bug bricks the progress you've made the last couple hours, with no fault of your own. And then we got people like you going "no biggie". Are you serious.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

I was never on a high horse.

-snip-

I have only said that you guys choose to not improve your character because you do not want to. Instead you choose to do content your character is not yet strong enough for and then complain about not progressing. You want the game to change to fit your bad decisions.

Oh, yeah, you obviously never were. You made up the narrative of "too strong content" we are "not ready for", yet no one actually cares. I literally linked you a GIF of a bug I died to on my lvl 99 toon, with no fault of my own, and yet here you are, pretending it's a difficulty issue. Do you even check the things you write yourself, mate.

I am in total agreement with the OP. There's a already a ton of penalty to death. You get removed from the map with bonuses. EXP loss on top of it is just too much.

Some people respond that they love the penalty or 'you aren't ready yet' or the truly toxic 'get gud'. Backing up a bit is pointless, then you get basically no exp and loot is almost a non-drop in this game so backing up gets you nothing. but pushing the envelope to get loot and exp is even worse, because you move backwards.

But this thread, like so many others, lets me know that you cannot argue with the rabid fanbase, even in an early access where our input SHOULD be mattering the most. GGG could literally s*** on a plate, and most of the fanbase would eat it.


Graphically this game is a masterpiece, but d4 is more fun. Ya I said it.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

But yea, go ahead, try to ruin it. If we are unlucky enough and GGG gives in a good game will die like so many others before.

Name a game that has been "ruined" by removing a death penalty.

Death penalties exist because games were unable to make challenging PvE content. They are a holdover from the days of Text Based MUD's and early Graphical MUD's like Everquest and Ultima Online.

Now that the game content is capable of gating progress naturally, they are no longer necessary or desirable.

"

Seanprice798#2395 wrote:

I also love baseball, so I went to Fenway Park and explained to them that just because I have no eye-hand coordination, can't swing a bat, can't run, can't throw, that I deserve to be on that team. I, ME, am owed the opportunity to experience what other players do. I'm going to my local congressman and you will see me leading off next opening day.

Here's what the game is doing now - every time the Mets lose a game, they have to go down to the minors to grind out some games before being allowed to come back and compete.

No one is asking to remove the challenge. Only the punishment.

The death penalty is a waste of time. There is nothing to discuss here. Game is not work. Game is for fun.

Death penalty is fine, I like it very much

The PoE1 Andy's here defending the death penalty likely because it exists in PoE1, rather then for any good reason. All the counter arguments in this thread are nonsense, they don't have anything solid to counter it.

Let me say that in PoE1 the game was designed to be old school, hardcore, difficult. This is why they wanted level 100 to be an achievement. To make it even harder they added XP penalty. Know what that accomplished? Every lv95+ character just paying for carries through untainted paradise maps until they level safely. It means literally nothing. As usual, you pay for power in PoE1 with ingame currency, carries, gear, XP, all can be bought.

PoE2 is meant to lean more towards the casual audience, a wider player base, hence why they kept PoE1 so the vets can stay there if they want the "hardcore" style. Instead the PoE1 vets feel the need to try and force PoE2 to get closer to PoE1.

There should not be any penalty, ANY. If I can't complete the map, I can just go elsewhere to level and get gear. If someone wants to try and brute force a map, why not let them? All they're doing is burning their time, but at least they're having fun and overcoming difficult situations. Doing a lower map faster and more efficiently is faster for progress, but let people try to do harder content slower if they can access it.

Why do people get so upset by letting people play inefficiently? Hell I don't get the "X divs per hour" crowd, sounds like work rather then fun, but I'm not here arguing it shouldn't exist.

I thought about this a long time ago.

In my opinion, xp penalty is a must, preventing players to gain power if they are just throwing their body at their problems instead of fixing their builds or trying to improve their knowledges.

That being said, i also think that everyone should have the opportunity to reach max level, to be able to experience the maximum power their character can have.

Here's the solution i came up to: What if, instead of losing 15 % xp per deaths. Players would lose 90% of the xp they gained since their last death.

In exemple: You are at 50% of your level and haven't died yet, then die. You would go back to 5% xp, losing 45% xp, a way worst penalty that is currently in the game.

Howerver, if you go back to 15% before dying again, you'd be set back to 6%, instead of 0%. Climb up to 70% then die, you'd be at 12%, etc. That way, players who would constantly dies, would still progress, at a much much slower pace tho.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Never is there any situation where you absolutely cannot progress. There is absolutely always a map difficulty or area where you can farm currency or potential upgrades. If you do not do this, then it is your decision not to try to improve your character. There is always a step back in difficulty. If you keep dying in T10 you can try T9. If you still die you can try T8 ... and so on. You simply do not want to and therefor decide not to try to improve your character. Even if you die in T1 you can go back to Act 3 cruel.

This is simply wrong. From what I learned the general drop chance of stuff in maps tier 1-9 is slim to not existing. I found a single pair of boots with 5 great rolls on them. I put an exalted on it and got 30% movement speed. Perfect boots for my class, Armor, Life, 2 Resis, Movement speed and armor in %. I doubt that I will find something better anytime soon as all the rolls are Tier 5 and up. The rest of my items - while on lower level, have great rolls between Tier 2 and Tier 6 already. I found at least 12 Expert Maces yesterday and wanted to craft a new one and every attempt failed. So tell me how many years am I supposed to grind low level shit in the hopes to find a item that boosts me to be able to - yet again - safely run the next tier? I don't want it safe. I want it fun. And fun for me is to use the mechanics that my actually class is offering me. Melee class in CQC with raise shield, block, Dodge roll. I simply can not do this. Why add it if there is no reason to use it because I can't play in an area where it makes sense to raise the shield? Raising it in the right second to block a heavy (blockable) attack from the boss just to dodge roll behind him to stun and deal burst damage is such a satisfying mechanic. It's fun, it's engaging it requires to coordinate and use multiple skills and buttons and works AWESOME with my Controller - yes, playing with a Controller is sooo awesome.

So running low maps doesn't serve a purpose other than keeping you busy for longer so you spend more time paying real money for vanity or what?

I am not sure if GGG finances itself like a Mobile Game with whales who cash 5 digit amounts of money or tons of tons of player who pay little amount of money every now and then. I suppose it's the 2nd. because there is not much to buy once you put in 500-800€. So I am 100% sure that's way better for their income to keep more player - even in lower level areas playing for longer than designing a game that punishes people for not playing perfect. As I said: Less than 10% pass lv 90. Maybe 1-2% of the player starting to play reach lv 100 (I suppose it's less) Removing the EXP penalty will allow the few % Top Tier player to be lv 100 1 week faster. What a shame... Haven't you said "reaching level 100 is not the goal" so why is it bad to reach it faster?

I am always talking about the average player between lv 70 and 90 who doesn't want to continue because progress from 1 week vanishes in 1 second. They will stop playing and likely not coming back - like I did in PoE 1.

"

Seanprice798#2395 wrote:

I also love baseball, so I went to Fenway Park and explained to them that just because I have no eye-hand coordination, can't swing a bat, can't run, can't throw, that I deserve to be on that team. I, ME, am owed the opportunity to experience what other players do. I'm going to my local congressman and you will see me leading off next opening day.

THIS makes no sense on so much layers of existence...
What you referring to is: "I am to dumb to even finish the story because I don't know how to equip an item - now I have to start with a level 100 full geared character."

What I really mean is what I wrote a few times already.

People don't want to lose their progress on the way. Most will stop long before they are getting close to lv 100 anyway because it's a harsh time investment not a lot of people can bare. Likely even me included. But on the way to try it I don't want to get tossed back every single time I try to play content that's equal to my skills.

This includes dying but how can I know that my character has weak spots if I don't die? So dying is generally a part of the game. While finding this out and experimenting with items, skills and passives, I don't want to lose any EXP progress already done.

Playing low maps until I am heavily overgeared just to play content that's as low as the low content until I am overgeared as well just to play content that's not as low as content I used to play until being overgeared.

What people basically saying here is: Play low level shit until you outgear the area, go one area up and play it until you outgear it, one level up, play it until you outgear it...

I'd call that the even worse pussy approach than someone who's asking to remove the EXP penalty.


For everyone here that actually believes that I want to change the Game into something it is not... No... I give you 100% probability that there won't be any big change in gameplay rather than some people reaching lv 100 faster than they did before.
I want to change a mechanic that ACTUALLY causes people to leave. And I am also 100% positive on the fact that not a single player will actually leave if you remove it. But a good chunk of player will play longer, more characters and therefore be willing to spend real money. That's simply base mathmatics. If you don't get it, don't argue with me.

And following this I'd like to see the very best argument anyone has for his side of the discussion so I can debunk it as imagination right away and be done with this persons comments.

EXP loss isn't as punishing as it seems because 1) The passive tree is relatively weaker in this game 2) You have 100+ points, you put your most important points first, least important points last. Your final few points are your least meaningful points, unless you are just being stupid with point priority.

You can argue that endgame is badly tuned and 1 death maps are too much, but experience loss is absolutely necessary, or else your deaths/failures mean nothing and by extension neither do your successes.