Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

"Wawawa my net-build doesn't work unless I'm level 100 as the guide said, so I NEED it, I DESERVE it"

If you hate PoE2 design so much just don't play it and go back to PoE1 where XP loss doesn't exist and every single character can reach level 100 blindfolded.

Ho wait...

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PoE2 design is great. Death has consequences. You don't like the consequences ? Here are some possible solutions for you (choose wisely) :

-Accept reality as it is and plan/play/feel accordingly.

-Don't die :
-Play tankier build
-Get tankier gear
-Play lower levels
-Git gud.

-Play another game less punitive, that would hurt your feelings less.

-Complain online that the game is bad and stealing your time while doing everything you can to change it into something it's not to feed your ego. (But keep playing it for some reasons (???) ; who is the masochist here ?).

Or maybe provide feedback on an early access game in the forums they have provided for it, so they can track player assessments of the game? That is also something a person could do? These are company provided forums.

Meanwhile, you dismiss all the feedbacks, opinions, and facts from people telling you that loss of map/loss of xp on death are core part of the game, both intentionnal and great game design creating both meaning and challenge for both regular mapping and higher bossing, and you guys keep plaguing the net and dooming the game's future because you are just upset to be punished away from the elite circle you WANT to belong to but you CAN'T access due to a lack of gear/skill/knowledge/patience.

It's not feedback, it's entitled whining. You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it. You FEEL like you DESERVE to reach the end of the endgame. Well, that's not how it works. Clearing the campaign and reaching 70 is great enough, that's already the end of the game for most people whom had fun clearing it. You want more ? It exist, but good luck reaching it. You can't do it ? You know what they said : git gud.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Meanwhile, you dismiss all the feedbacks, opinions, and facts from people telling you that loss of map/loss of xp on death are core part of the game, both intentionnal and great game design creating both meaning and challenge for both regular mapping and higher bossing, and you guys keep plaguing the net and dooming the game's future because you are just upset to be punished away from the elite circle you WANT to belong to but you CAN'T access due to a lack of gear/skill/knowledge/patience.

It's not feedback, it's entitled whining. You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it. You FEEL like you DESERVE to reach the end of the endgame. Well, that's not how it works. Clearing the campaign and reaching 70 is great enough, that's already the end of the game for most people whom had fun clearing it. You want more ? It exist, but good luck reaching it. You can't do it ? You know what they said : git gud.

I think you are doing a lot more entitled whining than anyone else here. OP was directing feedback at the devs, not you. Several responses with opinions supporting xp penalty are not facts, they are also feedback and opinions. Many responses are not in favor of it as well. If supporting opinions are not compelling enough to change someone's mind? Then yes, they are dismissed. That is how debate works.

Nah, because I accept reality and actually enjoy it. You don't.

Case dismissed.

Merry Christmas.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it.

Death penalties do not make a game harder. They only make it more tedious.

The challenge is what makes the game hard. Overcoming the challenge makes it fulfilling.

Punishment has nothing to do with that. In fact, it means they have to lower the challenge or the punishments would be too harsh and too frequent.

We want a challenging, difficult game. Not a punishing, time-wasting one.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it.

Death penalties do not make a game harder. They only make it more tedious.

The challenge is what makes the game hard. Overcoming the challenge makes it fulfilling.

Punishment has nothing to do with that. In fact, it means they have to lower the challenge or the punishments would be too harsh and too frequent.

We want a challenging, difficult game. Not a punishing, time-wasting one.

only tedious if you run ez content. you want the safety of ez content in hard content.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Nah, because I accept reality and actually enjoy it. You don't.

Case dismissed.

Merry Christmas.

uh huh

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Meanwhile, you dismiss all the feedbacks, opinions, and facts from people telling you that loss of map/loss of xp on death are core part of the game, both intentionnal and great game design creating both meaning and challenge for both regular mapping and higher bossing, and you guys keep plaguing the net and dooming the game's future because you are just upset to be punished away from the elite circle you WANT to belong to but you CAN'T access due to a lack of gear/skill/knowledge/patience.

It's not feedback, it's entitled whining. You just want the game to be made easier, because you can't hack it. You FEEL like you DESERVE to reach the end of the endgame. Well, that's not how it works. Clearing the campaign and reaching 70 is great enough, that's already the end of the game for most people whom had fun clearing it. You want more ? It exist, but good luck reaching it. You can't do it ? You know what they said : git gud.

That's one of the points I said at the beginning :-D Just because you play a build that basically clears everything everywhere in every map doesn't make you the king.

For that matter I can copy an stupid no brainer build and do the same and reach lv 100 like friends did many times in PoE 1. In fact they got bored by such build so they often stopped between 92 and 99. ON the other hand they quit because it's virtually impossible to get creative with own ideas because your progress is stopped or at least heavily slowed due to the EXP penalty.

If you are such a player, I can totally understand the comment. People like you wouldn't feel a single negative thing by removing the EXP Penalty... You are just scared that your way to play is not the only valid anymore.

You either play totally outgeared in lower missions until you "farmed" your gear or you play builds that are mostly copied and not self engineered. It's fine... I have nothing against it while I don't like it. But posing in the forum as king and telling others to leave because they would like a single thing be changed, is just over the top arrogant.

By now I clear tier 7 maps with ease... Even rare enemies stacked with buffs are usually dying 1 hit with a Melee Boneshatter build.

I still can't run higher maps because the potential EXP loss doesn't allow me to take this challenge so I am stuck... what now? I just had level up... I can try it. And then? I beat it... I stick with Tier 7 and in 1 or 2 out of 10 maps I die for what ever reason. Cycle starts over again.

There is basically not a single downside for the game or the economy or any other aspect. You guys are defending it because you feel king because you reach something on one of two lame ways that can be done by anyone... but not everyone want's to stick with outgeared content or play meta builds. Can't you get it? You can keep playing the exact same way you are doing right now. Only difference is that other player can play differently. Some player like to do more than just walk, press button, all dead... continue... walk, press button, all dead... I play a melee build, I want a reason to carry the shield. I love the shield raise mechanic and the dodge roll. I want to use it and have fun with it.

Following what you say you are allowed to have "fun" - what ever this looks like for you. But others can't suggest things to have fun also... I am currently looking for a word for it but I better shut it at this point.

Not a single one here could deliver a solid reason that I couldn't counter.

Another reason for EXP Loss Removal would be party play...
- Can't get revived, can't use another portal to go back in

A friend started a map for the hideout and put in a freaking scary rare T8 map by accident and asked for help. So I joined and helped him knowing I would likely die but I wanted this hideout as well.

I did not die because of my skill, my knowledge, my patience... I died because the game is heavily overloaded with effects. As a melee I am in CCQ and he's playing a Minion Build. So he's not close to me and the minions doesn't block players. (players block players btw)

The reason I died were his stupid minions. About 20-25 Skeletons swarmed the huge freaking pack of monsters. While using the HP Bar on top on my head, I still couldn't see a thing. I couldn't see where to charge, where to jump, where to roll. I saw no ground effects, no explosions... nothing. I had like 0.5 seconds to think so I just reacted and tried to get out of the zerk of minions but died while hammering my instand potion. It was fine for me... I expected to die and was ready for it. Just not for such a stupid reason.

The game is not designed for it but people are forced into party play for more loot. So the game is punishing me 5 times. EXP Loss, Map loss, Atlas Mod lost, orbs for map crafting lost and last but not least the possibility to play with friends is lost from the start on out.

I would even be willing to meet you half way: EXP loss remains for boss maps for example. Something I can stack up and attempt one by one in a nice boss killing evening after a level up to lower the potential EXP loss.

I'd call this a compromise I don't like but boss these maps - because they are bosses, can be done on Magic maps without too much mods. Maybe even on 1 or 2 levels below the skill average.

But people wouldn't agree to this as well because your reason is not "good mechanic for myself" but rather "bad mechanic for others" so you can joke about them because they would play a different approach giving the chance.

Edit:
I forgot the most important stuff:

After level Up I could attempt every map in every difficulty as often as I have this map without a single EXP loss in the process... Depending I haven't finished one and die in the next.

So your beloved EXP loss system can already be circumvented and people can smash their heads against invisible walls of difficulty.

Following your chain of logic a Down-Level mechanic should be implemented to prevent them cheating and attempting maps they are not allowed too because they are not skilled enough to win.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

I would even be willing to meet you half way: EXP loss remains for boss maps for example. Something I can stack up and attempt one by one in a nice boss killing evening after a level up to lower the potential EXP loss.

You have it backwards. What you are describing is exactly the issue I have with it: force another level up to not waste time you already spent. And this is why I absolutely hate this pro-EXP-loss stance.

Say, for example, you've been grinding for 6 hours and you are like halfway to the next level. Then you get a specific map drop, say, Ultimatum maybe, that would allow you to power up. This is what you've been working towards the last couple days, and on your grind day, you finally got one. But man, you already spent 6 hours to finally get one, but what do you do? Do you grind another 6 hours straight, or do you risk losing 2 hours of your time, on top of losing that thing you farmed for, just so you can start again? For those of you playing 8 hours a day it might not be a problem, for others it just might be.

This is why the EXP penalty is inherently stupid, as level progress is progress you already made and is something you can look forward to continuing when you log back in. You can see it, it's always there, it's a reward on its own for time spent. It doesn't feel like a waste of time, because you know, once that bar is full, you get to pick another power-up.

And before you come at me with the argument "but you can work towards it and feel excited on the way" - that's complete bullshit, as the journey thus far was working towards that goal and now you finally got it. Except you have no idea what the boss does or how the mechanics work, but man, that defense upgrade would be hella nice. You gonna watch a YouTube video first? If the answer to that is yes, I'd say case dismissed.

You want a really simple example? I'll provide one. I have hundreds of hours in Elden Ring, and the first thing I do when I make a new character is to finish the Varré questline, so that I can unlock the Rune grind ASAP. If you know what to do and you beeline for it, it's a thing you can do in like half an hour to an hour. And why is this still in the game? Miyazaki knows about it, and iirc he even said he's gonna leave it in because it serves a purpose. And what purpose does it serve? If you play that game for dozens of hours, you make a dozen characters and you do not want to grind out the entire map for early boosts. He knows that. Is it game-breaking? Absolutely not. He understands that most players aren't gonna sit there and farm a fucking bird for several hours straight, one arrow at a time. However, it's a nice thing to have to buy consumables, get a few early levels and buy some gear from vendors. And it's okay to stay because you worked for it.

That is an example of steady progress that stays once you've unlocked it. And that is why the EXP penalty is stupid.

Edit: Come to think of it, bell-bearings also are steady progress. They carry over to NG+. Imagine if you'd lose all the materials every time you died. I bet the game would gain 3x as many players. /s