Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

"

BigInJapan#9720 wrote:

Removing the 1 death per map OR XP penalty will devastate the game in a way that it won't recover from. Deaths will be a minor nuisance and everyone will be lvl 99 in no time.

You see, I'm with you on the 1 death design. Like, that is something I can get behind, even though it doesn't exactly scream grand design, either. Though the difference is that it doesn't directly interfere with your progress. I lost a 10-wave Ultimatum trial, that I grinded for hours for, due to a stupid double-click that instantly closed it again. Was I mad? Briefly. Though the only thing I lost was the trial itself. Thankfully, you don't lose EXP if you die in there, but that's beside the point.

I can continue on with my character and I've lost nothing but I've also gained nothing (on that axis). So, I only made progress in one direction, which is fine. Different story if it had dropped for me after hours and then I died trying to pick it up. Then I would have actually lost time I already spent and I would have lost progress on 2 axes instead of only 1. One is a minor setback that doesn't halt my progress and doesn't delete any progress made, two is a major setback that puts me back to below where I started from, so I have to spend EVEN MORE time than before to get back to a point where I have actually progressed.

Can you understand the difference?

"

Fancysalad#2034 wrote:

I'm not really sure why people have such an issue with the XP penalty. Its a mechanic that forces reflection and build refinement. That's the best thing about POE, it makes you think about the games system, defence layers and to learn the mechanics that you die against.

Guess what, you can achieve that without dying. Death EXP penalty isn't forcing you to learn, it's simply a time wasting mechanic to keep you grinding.

Your argument doesn't hold anyway, simply because there is nothing to learn from when you die, unless it's like super, super obvious - which happens almost never.

Here's a video (not mine). Please tell us what killed them.

For reference, my own character has 90/80/80% max Fire/Cold/Lightning res + 58% Chaos res with Cloak of Flame, +10% PDR from Jade stacks and ~2.4k Armour during mapping + 15% Enfeeble (8% for bosses) aura. I can run T16 +1 maps with damage mods on them just fine, but a single ~30% of damage as extra Chaos takes an already rippy Eye of Winter spammer pack to a near death experience even in T14 maps, so then I know what actually killed me (if I died). I haven't even died to accidental explosions from the big dudes I forgot to pop here and there. So far, when I have died, it was either this type of shit or something I had no idea what it was.

"

Fancysalad#2034 wrote:

I'm not really sure why people have such an issue with the XP penalty. Its a mechanic that forces reflection and build refinement. That's the best thing about POE, it makes you think about the games system, defence layers and to learn the mechanics that you die against. Removing the consequences would remove the impetus to engage with the game. People would just grab their cookie cutter builds from some streamer and zoom zoom to 100.

The XP penalty will drive people to the cookie cutter builds.

Why is so important to not die a lot? If I want to keep throwing myself at a challenge, why is that an issue? Don't you think people will think about things after they die enough?

Believe me, my enjoyment of the game will not go down with the removal of XP penalties. I know because I play lots of games that don't have them.

Every game I've played that has had significant death penalties I've seen the same outcome: Players avoid risk. Easier to outlevel the content than to die and regain the XP.

The XP loss isn't even all of the punishment: you still have map loss, etc... to make death "meaningful".

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

The XP penalty will drive people to the cookie cutter builds.

Why is so important to not die a lot? If I want to keep throwing myself at a challenge, why is that an issue? Don't you think people will think about things after they die enough?

You keep bringing up this false "argument".

Nobody is stopping you from doing what you want in the game. It is and will always be your decision. Just live with the consequences of your decisions.

A cookie cutter build will always outperform/outfarm a non cookie cutter build. That's why they are cookie cutter and why many people already prefer them. Independent of XP penalty or no XP penalty.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Nobody is stopping you from doing what you want in the game. It is and will always be your decision. Just live with the consequences of your decisions.

Of course it's the player's decision. We're discussing what those consequences should be. Losing XP is not a natural consequence of failing a challenge, it's an added punishment on top of that.

What if they changed the XP penalty to bring you down to the start of the next lowest level? So if you were level 87 it would bring you down to the start of level 86. That would still be the player's choice to engage with the content or not. Would you still be ok with it? If not, why not?

This is Early Access. The time to discuss these things so changes can be made. Just because a feature exists and is implemented, doesn't mean it's good for the game.

You keep saying a message NEEDS to be sent to the player. Why? You've never really answered that. What would happen to the game if players decided for themselves whether to stop banging their head against the proverbial wall or not without an XP penalty pushing their character backwards?

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

Of course it's the player's decision. We're discussing what those consequences should be. Losing XP is not a natural consequence of failing a challenge, it's an added punishment on top of that.

What if they changed the XP penalty to bring you down to the start of the next lowest level? So if you were level 87 it would bring you down to the start of level 86. That would still be the player's choice to engage with the content or not. Would you still be ok with it? If not, why not?

In this game, at the current state, yes it is a natural consequence.

Sarcasm: I would argue that even in real life if you keep bashing your head against the wall you lose experience.

You try to make a purposefully ridiculous "counter argument" to bring your point across. It just does not work this way. But even if it were in the game, it would still be my decision if I played the game and if yes how I would play it.

You say my example is ridiculous, so I assume you agree there's a point where the death penalty becomes too extreme. That was my point.

As for "your choice" - we agree. But that's not what's being discussed.

No - an XP penalty is not a natural consequence - it is a contrived punishment. It is not something the player would normally expect. This game is supposed to be Dark Souls inspired. In souls-like games you do not lose any XP you've already spent.

Why is it so important to you that players receive "the message" that they need to go and do lower tier content? How does the player continuing to try to overcome the challenge hurt the game?

For players that want to grind out hundreds of no-challenge maps, there is Path of Exile. I'm sincerely hoping this game will not follow that route, and I'll keep giving my feedback to help that happen.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

No - an XP penalty is not a natural consequence - it is a contrived punishment. It is not something the player would normally expect. This game is supposed to be Dark Souls inspired. In souls-like games you do not lose any XP you've already spent.

What?

The only thing PoE 2 has in common with Dark Souls is that both games have dodge roll. That's it.

On the other hand, PoE 2 is almost like Diablo 2 and is the successor to PoE 1. Both games have XP loss. So the player absolutely has to expect XP loss. This is literally something that is part of these types of games for over 20 years.

I actually don't really "feel" the XP penalty that much. 87 war and 84 ranger. It's everything else. The map, the node buffs, loot on the ground, etc.

I'd like to see all of this removed. But I get that some people feel it is a part of PoE. What I'd really like is a separate "Softcore" league. Keep your standard/harcore/etc and let me have a softcore league where there are no death penalties, I can use all 6 portals for maps if I want, and even give me drop bias for my class. So tired of never finding jewels for whatever class I'm playing.

"

FruitLord#0833 wrote:

I actually don't really "feel" the XP penalty that much. 87 war and 84 ranger. It's everything else. The map, the node buffs, loot on the ground, etc.

I'd like to see all of this removed. But I get that some people feel it is a part of PoE. What I'd really like is a separate "Softcore" league. Keep your standard/harcore/etc and let me have a softcore league where there are no death penalties, I can use all 6 portals for maps if I want, and even give me drop bias for my class. So tired of never finding jewels for whatever class I'm playing.

You WILL feel it once you reach 90