Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

"

Samain#6430 wrote:

This satisfaction comes from knowing that the only real requirement to succeed remains sheer time investment, not skill.

thanks for this point. Good wording, love it.

If the game has a EXP Loss penalty that can only be circumvented by running lower content where the character is outgeared to a point where I find items that allow to run less lower - but still lower content - than the challenge is 0. Putting just enough time in and you get lv 100 while playing several 1000 of maps on a difficulty where it's usually impossible to die if you hit the potion button just in the right second.

I on the other hand would like to have some challenge that requires to combine skills and make use of abilities that are provided. Like I said: Raise Shield in just the right second to block a strong attack followed by dodge roll behind the boss to burst damage on him until I see the next blockable attack coming in... it's such a nice fluent gameplay and once I learned the boss mechanics in the story I could beat them at ease. with the downside that I don't deal a lot of damage against bosses. I need a while to hit them down but that's fine for me. Difference in maps are the modifier that make bosses stronger & faster. So I need to either adept my movement or improve things so I can stand a hit more. But how can I even bother trying it if I am faced with the loss of several days or weeks worth of EXP grind?

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You have simply made up your mind and refuse to understand. That's all. If you go back and read my post you can see that your response does not really make sense.

You can really look in the mirror for this one, you know.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

The second one is when players attempt content, their character is not yet fit for. Here the XP penalty is needed as a messaging tool. Because most players want to earn XP, as you prove, the logical train of thought is "Here I cannot earn XP, therefor I lower the difficulty to earn XP". Here the solution is for the player to lower the difficulty.

You keep bringing up this situation of players attempting content they are "not ready for" - Who Cares??? How is that a bad thing for the game? Players having fun trying to beat the hardest content they can.

But that's not the way I want to play, so they must be punished.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

All you do by removing the EXP loss is the not make people angry who are emotionally affected by losing part of their progress.

I am ready to invest a map, an atlas mod and orbs for crafting a map... I don't feel the neat to invest 10% EXP for trying how far I can get.

How would removing the XP penalty resolve your issue of getting one shot due to bugs or unfair mechanics?

It wouldn't, and that's the point. You'll still die, and that's fine. Without the XP penalty, it's your player vs the mobs/bosses. Now, it's your player vs. the dev team. It isn't the boss holding me back, it's the dev team punishing me for daring to push my character to the limits.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

Next thing: Why are you not wanting to remove the Map, Atlas, single Portal punishment? You are all about the EXP Penalty as MESSAGE - I literally can't read this anymore. The game is not giving you any message at all. The game is not trying to tell you something. The game has no self awareness. It's the developer who add stuff to make it harder and harder and harder for no real reason. There is no REAL point behind it other than causing more and more frustration around the player base.

This thread is about the XP penalty. That's why I am writing about the XP penalty.

Yes, the game itself is not self aware. The developer implements these mechanics to send the message they want you to get. It is not about making the game harder. An XP penalty does not increase the difficulty.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

If GGG doesn't want me to attempt some difficulty level that can be called a challenge, why bother to sell the game with this kind of freedom of choice in the first place?

Pinnacle bosses are the challenge. You can very well try maps as a challenge but you have to accept if you fail the challenge.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

People here still can't give a single reason for the EXP penalty to stay other than their personal enjoyment to be better than others because they don't die because they are fine with pussy level difficulties.

I did multiple times. You simply choose not wanting to understand.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

But guess what: There are player out there that doesn't want to run Tier 3 maps until they have items fit to run Tier 10 maps just because Tier 8 or 9 can't be played due to bugs or because people like a more challenging experience.

Then this is the players decision and the player needs to accept the result of their decision.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

Being able to 1 hit everything in Tier 5 as well as in tier 7 makes me want to try tier 8 or 9 but I simply can't because trying to find a mix of difficulty and reward will always end in dying at some point. While it's not that bad on lv 80, it will be on 90 or 95. And the problem I see is that I'm basically excluded from some of the challenging gameplay because dying on lv 95 wastes 1-2 weeks of time invested. Sure, I can continue... No pressure in terms of time as this is not a league limited to 3 month. But it's so freaking annoying to die for what ever reason and lose something that's complete out of comparison to anything else. Losing maps or orbs or what ever else can be farmed quite fast. But EXP takes weeks to months at one point. And while I have my christmas vacation now where I can play 12 hours a day, I can only afford about 2 during work days. And some people can't even doing that.

Are we still talking about the XP penalty? How does the XP penalty waste 1-2 weeks of time invested? If this is still about XP loss, even if you would get 5 levels, this would only be a bit more damage. But you already are one shotting the entire screen. So what would change? On the other hand, if you have such a surplus of damage, have you tried to change some of the damage passive points to defense?

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

The message as you call it is utter bullshit because wasting several days and weeks of progress for trying out skills, build and items on a difficulty level that's meant to test it, makes no sense. I don't need to test my new weapon in a map tier 5 because it's save. I have to test my gear in a map where I used to die... just to find out... damn... died again. Another month of EXP farming gone. There is simply not a single logical point in that... not one.

I think you are over exaggerating. I am currently level 87. When I die it takes me maybe 2 maps to get the lost XP back.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

You are right, the snake head monsters deal Chaos damage but the shield explicit states "Block all blockable damage" And any kind of projectile can be blocked by the shield. Tried it like 1000 times in the story. Only ground effects, area effects and heavy boss attacks can't be blocked. While boss attacks that have a physical component can be blocked. And we are not talking about the BLOCK value on the shield. I talk about the "raise shield" skill you have an every shield that can be used with every class. Even a mage can use this mechanic.

That's what I mean. I think, think is the imperative word here, that the snake projectile only creates a ground effect that deals the damage. Not the projectile itself. If my assumption is correct, that would mean it is not blockable.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

How would removing the XP penalty resolve your issue of getting one shot due to bugs or unfair mechanics?

It doesn't solve the bug but it would clearly making this bug way way less annoying. If you don't believe it read throu all the comments here.

I am a firm believer that one should always fix the issue instead of covering it with something. If I have a toothache I don't want to take painkillers for the rest of my life. I go to the dentist to fix my tooth.

Also, from your description I am not sure that it was really a bug that killed you. Like with the snakes, the projectiles creating a ground effect would be a plausible explanation for me.

I also can't see how removing the XP penalty would help you in any way. It seems to me like you situation would just stay exactly the same. Like I said, since you already explode the entire screen with one attack, as you said, a bit more damage from maybe 5 or 10 levels more would not do anything. And if you want defensive points, you would be free to respec some damage nodes to defense nodes, since you clearly have enough damage.

To me it sounds like you are annoyed by dying and want to vent.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

"

yningunay#5135 wrote:

In my opinion you´re wrong in your assumptions about difficulty and progression being entirely controlled by the player regardless if you like the current death penalty or not.
With the current penalty systems in place players will reach a point with no natural progression when they outlevel the content their build can comfortably complete a lot - but will die too often in appropriately leveled content to progress in level.

Progression is then entirely controlled by rgn of drops/crafting - which i wouldn´t label as within a players ability to control to 100%. Thats the just nature of rgn.

Difficulty is controllable. Progression not as much. Those two are asynchronous.

Gear progression can be achieved at any level. I could even farm Act 1 normal for Exalted Orbs if I wanted.

You mentioned level progression. If you farm enemies that are lower level then you, you will receive less XP, correct. But if the build is not able to farm comfortable at the level the player is (because of lacking gear progression), why should the player be able to farm levels there regardless? Here the correct approach is to improve the build/gear before going to these levels.

As mentioned in my original post - gear progression at a certain point is outside of the players control if you can´t do high enough content. It´s entirely rgn.

This renders the point of difficulty being controllable somewhat moot.

The natural progression you mentioned in your post does hit a wall with the current two prompt death penalties in place - beacuse both access to gear and build/levels are penalized.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

The only players really effected by it are the ones that keep dying over and over again during the endgame loop of farming maps

No. Having an XP penalty affects everyone. It sends the "message" that the devs DO NOT WANT you to try challenging content. If there is a reasonable chance you might die, then that content is not for you.

And you, personally, are fine with having no challenge in the game. You look at going 99/100 maps with no deaths as perfectly fine. To me that sounds absolutely brain dead boring. If maps are that easy, they shouldn't exist. Let me "farm" gear by opening loot boxes out of a pachinko machine (not for real money, of course). That would be more engaging, save time, and get me back to the part of the game I want to play - ie: the challenging part.

The devs clearly do not want you to have the joy of facing a challenge multiple times, finally having everything "click", and winning the battle. They would rather you lose, go down and grind up until you have over leveled and over geared the encounter, and then come back and crush it.

That may sound like fun to you. In fact, you seem to think it necessary. Players sticking with trying to overcome the challenge must be TAUGHT A LESSON so that they change that mindset.

This also runs completely counter to what the game taught them throughout the campaign. Bosses are tough, so die, die again. Learn their mechanics, improve your timing, and you will succeed. Over leveling was not needed (well, depending on your class, at least).


I'll end this with one other observation: If you really mean for players to progress through grinding out hundreds (thousands?) of maps where they have little to no chance of death - well, that's exactly the sort of thing people are willing to pay real money to avoid. And they will, if the endgame is exciting and engaging enough for them to want to get there.


Edit: Maybe that's GGG's endgame. Selling a level 100 boost. If the game stays the way it is, a lot of people will buy it.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

You can really look in the mirror for this one, you know.

With the difference that I am giving you an explanation why the mechanic is useful. And you just want to remove it because you keep failing at maps.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

You keep bringing up this situation of players attempting content they are "not ready for" - Who Cares??? How is that a bad thing for the game? Players having fun trying to beat the hardest content they can.

But apparently they can't. If they could the penalty would not effect them.

Everyone is free to do whatever they want. They just have to accept the outcome of their decisions. I would not care, if players would not come crying to the forum and complain about their own decisions.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

All you do by removing the EXP loss is the not make people angry who are emotionally affected by losing part of their progress.

I am ready to invest a map, an atlas mod and orbs for crafting a map... I don't feel the neat to invest 10% EXP for trying how far I can get.

How would removing the XP penalty resolve your issue of getting one shot due to bugs or unfair mechanics?

It wouldn't, and that's the point. You'll still die, and that's fine. Without the XP penalty, it's your player vs the mobs/bosses. Now, it's your player vs. the dev team. It isn't the boss holding me back, it's the dev team punishing me for daring to push my character to the limits.

No, you are punishing yourself. You have all needed parameters for your decision. You make your decision. And then you are mad at one of the known parameters. It is still your character vs the mobs/bosses.

Like you said, removing the XP penalty would not change you dying.

What else would you gain from removing the XP penalty? Maybe 5-10 more levels over some time? So a little bit more damage? Is that what we are arguing about? Would these levels be earned? Failing upwards? Or is it not about the levels? So do you not care about getting the XP? If so, then why remove it?

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

No. Having an XP penalty affects everyone. It sends the "message" that the devs DO NOT WANT you to try challenging content. If there is a reasonable chance you might die, then that content is not for you.

How does this effect someone who maybe dies 1 in a 100 maps? In this situation a little bit of XP is lost, 2 maps later that loss is made up for, leaves 98 maps of XP gain. This simply makes no sense.

And you still keep misusing the word challenge to describe your desire to run content meant for farming above your characters capabilities. Maps are not a challenge. If you do not want to understand this, there is no point in continue arguing. But you it is still your decision and you will have to accept the outcome of your decision.

It also does not remove the option to attempt the content. I just raises the stakes.

"

yningunay#5135 wrote:

As mentioned in my original post - gear progression at a certain point is outside of the players control if you can´t do high enough content. It´s entirely rgn.

This could only be true for SSF, Solo Self Found. In trade league you can always farm Exalted Orbs somewhere to buy items. Even in Act 1 normal.

But i would argue that it is entirely false, since most affix tiers can already appear on items dropped in tier 1 maps. There are maybe 1-3 tiers of certain affixes that are limited to higher item level. Like +# Level of Minion Skills on Sceptres. +4 can roll on item level 55 (dropped even before maps), while +5 needs item level 81 (tier 16 map).

So in maps there is not that much difference in the possible power of items. At least not enough to really let you hit a wall.

Or depending on how you meant it. Gear progression in the sense that there is the possibility/chance of an upgrade is always given. Gear progression in the sense that an update in plausible to be gotten in a relatively short time ... here I think the time is always an exponential curve. The better items you have the more time/currency you need to invest to get an upgrade.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

No. Having an XP penalty affects everyone. It sends the "message" that the devs DO NOT WANT you to try challenging content. If there is a reasonable chance you might die, then that content is not for you.

How does this effect someone who maybe dies 1 in a 100 maps? In this situation a little bit of XP is lost, 2 maps later that loss is made up for, leaves 98 maps of XP gain. This simply makes no sense.

And you still keep misusing the word challenge to describe your desire to run content meant for farming above your characters capabilities. Maps are not a challenge. If you do not want to understand this, there is no point in continue arguing. But you it is still your decision and you will have to accept the outcome of your decision.

If maps are not a challenge they should be removed from the game.
Just leave in the bosses.

If you are happy grinding through content semi-AFK for hundreds of maps at a time, great. Most players aren't. They will find another game, or find ways to bypass it. Maybe the devs will bypass it for them.

I'm starting to think a Level 100 Boost coming to the cash shop may not be unlikely.


To address your point directly: Yes, XP loss is a known parameter. The parameter sucks: it shouldn't be in the game, it doesn't add anything positive to the game, and it negatively affects the game.

You believe a "message needs to be sent" to players that they should stop challenging themselves. Dying over and over again isn't enough - they must be prevented from enjoying that playstyle.

I disagree. The whole gimmick of "souls-likes" is "If at first you don't succeed, die, die, again". Not "gear up and grind out out levels until you remove the challenge."

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

If maps are not a challenge they should be removed from the game.
Just leave in the bosses.

If you are happy grinding through content semi-AFK for hundreds of maps at a time, great. Most players aren't. They will find another game, or find ways to bypass it. Maybe the devs will bypass it for them.

Sorry, but then you simply have the wrong game. Grinding maps for days/weeks is literally the core endgame loop of PoE 1 and PoE 2.

Some people farm bosses in PoE 1, but that is basically the same, since they are doing it with special boss builds that kill uber pinnacle bosses in seconds.

Sure you can do pinnacle bosses for a challenge. I did too. But you need to get the needed gear somehow. Or in PoE 2 you need the items to access the bosses. So you either need to farm the core endgame loop for these items, or for enough currency to buy them.

"

I also can't see how removing the XP penalty would help you in any way. It seems to me like you situation would just stay exactly the same. Like I said, since you already explode the entire screen with one attack, as you said, a bit more damage from maybe 5 or 10 levels more would not do anything. And if you want defensive points, you would be free to respec some damage nodes to defense nodes, since you clearly have enough damage.

To me it sounds like you are annoyed by dying and want to vent.

So in my particular case how does the EXP penalty help? What message does it sent?

I feel certainly ready to beat this content. As everything basically dies. And yes, I could go more on defences. That's what I am about to do with the next points. I already wasted so much gold on respec since there is not much else to do with it. But what ever value I toss around, it doesn't have a great effect. The items are what causing the real effect. But I can't farm them in a reasonable way. And while playing T3 - T6 there are still way to much crap items and way to less base items to craft with. So far I had 3 great items. One I sold after crafting because it had 2 awesome T9 rolls for a caster build and 2 I use myself. Boots and shield. And yes, I can keep repeating this cycle till I find the rest of the items just to repeat it on the very next low map that is outgeared.

Let me show you an example with some numbers ... kind of feels like using fingerpaint here:

Being lv 75 grinding Tier 3-5 maps because 6-8 is way to hard. I grind these maps until I can play 6-8 maps. That's around lv 80 (depending on the drop chance and crafting of good items) Then I reach a point where I play T6-8 maps while being lv 80 with 2.600HP - fully outgeared but I can't go any higher because dying on tier 9-11 is a thing again. So I stay with Tier 6-8 until I upgraded my entire set and reaching lv 85/88 and being able to run T9-11 maps without dying. But at this point I am again totally outgeared for T9-11 and Tier 12-14 would be interesting but I can't even attempt it anymore because at this point I lose days worth of time.

"

I think you are over exaggerating. I am currently level 87. When I die it takes me maybe 2 maps to get the lost XP back.

While I don't lose much EXP on lv 70-80 the amount I lose on 80+ increased and the time to get this amount back increased as well.

If you need 2 maps to get 10% EXP from 87>88 how comes that 79-80 just gave me 3-5% per map. Sure the map rarity, the monster amount and maybe even the EXP stat can have a huge impact but running 2 maps to get 10% would be you level from 87 to 88 in like 4-5 hours. Hence the question why you are still lv 87 and not 95+ so far? Tablets? EXP Maps? Rare Maps? You should always remember that not every player has the equal knowledge about the game. To be able to figure something out, I first need to know that there is such a option. And PoE doesn't do a great job in explaining mechanics.

Anyway... my point is that - while the EXP impact is low between 70 and 80 it gets way way worse after that and even ridiculous on 90+ and borderline stupid on lv 95+

I don't say I want to force my way there. But while on this way (since that's the essence of the game, right = improving your character) I get soft locked because one of the parts that can improve it is virtually blocked. And again: I don't claim that I want to run Tier 15 maps... I just want to be able to run something slightly more engaging than a map that can be played using auto attack only.

And by improving I also refer to enemy mechanics. The more mods I have, the more complex it gets the more careful I have to play to adept to these mods. But I simply can't attempt to try how speed modifier X oder damage modifier Y effects my build because I don't even dare to make my maps Rare unless the blue stats both doesn't affect enemy damage or even worst crit... crit would likely be always exchanged even without EXP loss.

So tell me again how I improve my character? By spending just enough time to always stay outgeared for the content I attempt?

Dude... I have a fulltime job and a family and a house that needs occasional work. 1-2 hours a day on a typical work day are possible for me but that's it... that's 3-6 maps depending on the fact how often I trade or do other things. Losing 10% of the EXP bar on lv 90 means a good week of EXP grind. for me.... (yes, depending on the atlas modifications) But to use those, you have to find and craft those first.

Yes, while grinding the EXP back I farm new items but the chance on dying again and loosing EXP again still persist. Hence the fact that I feel force to play only on outgeared content. -.-*

It can take 10 times as long to level up... I wouldn't care at all. I just don't want to lose progress I've done already. I would prefer to lose a random items from my Inventory (not character gear) but from the inventory rather than losing the EXP. That's how serious I am about it. I just don't want to lose the progress I made for trying out my character limits. After all that would make more sense... You die and drop something rather than "You die and lose EXP" And If I have a stack of Exalted I can teleport back, store them, and go back in. Costs me a portal but it's worth it to secure my treasure.

That's what I mean. I think, think is the imperative word here, that the snake projectile only creates a ground effect that deals the damage. Not the projectile itself. If my assumption is correct, that would mean it is not blockable.

Do they? I wouldn't say so because it's visually not noticeable. I talk about the enemy type that has 2 snakes coming from their shoulders shooting darts. I am 100% certain the projectile can be fully blocked. Tested this several times in the Story because they were the very reason I played my first high level character in PoE 1 as a CI build. If they have a ground effect, my mistake and It correct this post. But I am sure they don't. I will watch this really closely next time I see them.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

If maps are not a challenge they should be removed from the game.
Just leave in the bosses.

If you are happy grinding through content semi-AFK for hundreds of maps at a time, great. Most players aren't. They will find another game, or find ways to bypass it. Maybe the devs will bypass it for them.

Sorry, but then you simply have the wrong game. Grinding maps for days/weeks is literally the core endgame loop of PoE 1 and PoE 2.

You don't get it, do you? I LOVE TO GRIND THE SH*T OUT OF THE GAME!!! But not on content that I can finish using common attack on my build. And I tell you I can, because I did this... it just takes ages and a lot of dodge and shield usage. I want the feeling of risking a valuable map with awesome stats on it rather the risk of EXP.

"

Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Sorry, but then you simply have the wrong game. Grinding maps for days/weeks is literally the core endgame loop of PoE 1 and PoE 2.

None of us know what the core endgame loop of PoE 2 is going to be yet. The game's only been out a month and is in Early Access.

That said, I did watch the dev interviews and don't recall anyone bragging about players grinding through hundreds of maps with no challenge. I do remember them talking about all the challenging maps you can find, though.