Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Fancysalad#2034 wrote:

I'm not really sure why people have such an issue with the XP penalty. Its a mechanic that forces reflection and build refinement. That's the best thing about POE, it makes you think about the games system, defence layers and to learn the mechanics that you die against. Removing the consequences would remove the impetus to engage with the game. People would just grab their cookie cutter builds from some streamer and zoom zoom to 100.

The XP penalty will drive people to the cookie cutter builds.

Why is so important to not die a lot? If I want to keep throwing myself at a challenge, why is that an issue? Don't you think people will think about things after they die enough?

Believe me, my enjoyment of the game will not go down with the removal of XP penalties. I know because I play lots of games that don't have them.

Every game I've played that has had significant death penalties I've seen the same outcome: Players avoid risk. Easier to outlevel the content than to die and regain the XP.

The XP loss isn't even all of the punishment: you still have map loss, etc... to make death "meaningful".

Nothing is stopping you from continuously throwing yourself at a challenge. In fact you can do this after levelling with no consequence in terms of XP. However, If you think it serves no purpose then I'm not going to convince you otherwise, that's a fair opinion (Just not one I share for reasons already stated). In my experience it has forced me to engage with the mechanics and theory crafting in way that I've found really satisfying, I know I wouldn't have otherwise. Grim Dawn which I would rate as my seconds favourite ARPG after POE as well as second best in terms of depth and complexity also utilises XP penalties. I'd be curious what games you'd put forward in the genre that benefited from forgoing the penalty system.

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Fancysalad#2034 wrote:

Grim Dawn which I would rate as my seconds favourite ARPG after POE as well as second best in terms of depth and complexity also utilises XP penalties. I'd be curious what games you'd put forward in the genre that benefited from forgoing the penalty system.

Oh, yes. Grim Dawn with its grand design where enemies can literally be immune to damage if you don't bring enough RR. No res hard caps, you are fucked if you get the wrong mods. That's why every build in endgame essentially plays the same. Yeah, that game. Really fun. By the way, you can pick up most of that EXP lost.

xp loss is fine, has to stay

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

There is also no need to avoid content. Just do the content on a lower tier waystone.

That is avoiding content *SMDH*.

Let me put it this way. Let's say the game didn't have an XP penalty already.

How many people do you think would be asking for it, and what would their argument be?

I will ask for it, I'd said: "Please add the xp penalty back, my son keep bashing his head against the wall. He said he's going to lv to 100 with his 0% resist build, and it's been 3 weeks since he leveled to 76 and he's still only halfway to 77"

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Fancysalad#2034 wrote:

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Fancysalad#2034 wrote:

I'm not really sure why people have such an issue with the XP penalty. Its a mechanic that forces reflection and build refinement. That's the best thing about POE, it makes you think about the games system, defence layers and to learn the mechanics that you die against. Removing the consequences would remove the impetus to engage with the game. People would just grab their cookie cutter builds from some streamer and zoom zoom to 100.

The XP penalty will drive people to the cookie cutter builds.

Why is so important to not die a lot? If I want to keep throwing myself at a challenge, why is that an issue? Don't you think people will think about things after they die enough?

Believe me, my enjoyment of the game will not go down with the removal of XP penalties. I know because I play lots of games that don't have them.

Every game I've played that has had significant death penalties I've seen the same outcome: Players avoid risk. Easier to outlevel the content than to die and regain the XP.

The XP loss isn't even all of the punishment: you still have map loss, etc... to make death "meaningful".

Nothing is stopping you from continuously throwing yourself at a challenge. In fact you can do this after levelling with no consequence in terms of XP. However, If you think it serves no purpose then I'm not going to convince you otherwise, that's a fair opinion (Just not one I share for reasons already stated). In my experience it has forced me to engage with the mechanics and theory crafting in way that I've found really satisfying, I know I wouldn't have otherwise. Grim Dawn which I would rate as my seconds favourite ARPG after POE as well as second best in terms of depth and complexity also utilises XP penalties. I'd be curious what games you'd put forward in the genre that benefited from forgoing the penalty system.

Grim Dawn as example makes no sense what so ever. The EXp penalty exist but the amount to farm 10% EXP on lv 99 is in virtually no relation to PoE. The entire Game design is different. Just the simple fact that I find soooo much trash between all the item categories lowers the overall chance to find good loot.

Image i can choose just to find armor items while playing a melee tank class in PoE. It would take me 75% less time to get some crafting done. But while I find Evasion and ES items I also find those freaking worthless Hybrid items. They might serve certain builds but generally speaking not my own gameplay.

Grim Dawn doesn't have such a problem. I played 1 Character to 100 and found enough items to equip 2 other characters. that's not the point here. I spend more time in PoE on 1 Character than I ever did on Grim Dawn to lv up to 100. So it's out of question to compare them regarding EXP loss and tedious grind.

Nobody wants to throw his character 100 times against a map he can't beat. But the fact that I can die from what ever reason while playing a map that's closer to my level than something 3-4 Tiers below.

If you don't think about your Class, Items, Skills and passives after death EVEN WITHOOUT EXP LOSS, then the fault is with the player and not the game. But losing EXP for no real reason, than the fault is with the game and not the player. People get punished for not playing perfect or playing safe in low level maps.

And I refuse that the devs want this... They don't want people to play maps several levels below your character possibilities just to avoid death. That's such a stupid game design. And the only kind of player it really serves is the "Game is to hard so I play low content and just need to toss enough time into crappy low content to reach lv 100" If you grind your way up to 100 playing lower and totally outgeared maps, than this achievement counts nothing. There is no skill or knowledge or cunning involved. Just simple time... Time some people don't have. I know for a fact that most of my friends who played PoE 1 at some point and followed this very same approach don't have jobs or are to old to work and have the spare time to do such nonesense. Like I said many times. They can crank up the needed EXP 10 times. I grind all the way up if I have a character possible running high maps. As long as I don't lose the progress I already finished. No matter if it takes 3 month, 6 month or 9 month to reach the final level that my character can reach. Is it 90 or 100, no matter. On the way to this goal I don't want to lose EXP.

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I will ask for it, I'd said: "Please add the xp penalty back, my son keep bashing his head against the wall. He said he's going to lv to 100 with his 0% resist build, and it's been 3 weeks since he leveled to 76 and he's still only halfway to 77"

A rather stupid reply I might add... If someone is playing a 0 resi build and dies, he would die having EXP loss or not. And if you are playing such a class seriously, why not? Why punish people for toying around with options that are offered? The wall will be real with or without EXP loss. And I claim that everyone who attempts something like this is either totally stupid and therefore the EXP loss wouldn't be taken as "think about your build" or he's trying to other stuff.

Both might be valid reasons to play but both doesn't justify to punish with a nonesense mechanic.

Like people here already suggested: Rework the system. EXP for a Map is only given once the map was finished. That's a great idea... Why wouldn't this be message enough?

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

Of course it's the player's decision. We're discussing what those consequences should be. Losing XP is not a natural consequence of failing a challenge, it's an added punishment on top of that.

What if they changed the XP penalty to bring you down to the start of the next lowest level? So if you were level 87 it would bring you down to the start of level 86. That would still be the player's choice to engage with the content or not. Would you still be ok with it? If not, why not?

In this game, at the current state, yes it is a natural consequence.

Sarcasm: I would argue that even in real life if you keep bashing your head against the wall you lose experience.

You try to make a purposefully ridiculous "counter argument" to bring your point across. It just does not work this way. But even if it were in the game, it would still be my decision if I played the game and if yes how I would play it.

Can you, at some point, try to answer a question here and there? ^^ I know it's hard to keep track of all the comments. That's why I am usually far away from such forums.

What would you think would change right this second if the EXP loss is removed?

Someone who doesn't see the general message "you are death try again" doesn't bother about any message that is supposed to come with EXP loss. It's the opposite. Someone with an IQ that doesn't allow to realise that some gear and skills need a chance after the 5th death would rather stop playing than changing stuff. But while he has no EXP loss he can keep trying and eventually at some point he will see that he can't beat this or that boss or map and will ask for help.

I talked to a few player in game yesterday... Mostly all of them new players. I asked them why they do not chance something on their items or skills. Most of them had trash items. Most where between 50 and 60 There were even people lv 60 with blue gear... I told them what to do and what to look for and gave out some of my trash items. They didn't care much about the story and wanted to pass it as quickly as possible to get to the mapping system. So I explained to them that they will be f*cked hard if they keep this attitude up as the map system gets harder and harder and the gear to start with should be well enough to defeat the Act 3 boss without bigger problems. If not, they start to lose EXP on lv 70 and most of them were actually shocked about this fact.

This kind of player either stops way before it matters or stop because of the EXP loss. Not only because PoE does a shitty job in explaining things but also for the fact that EXP is taken from you.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

I talked to a few player in game yesterday... Mostly all of them new players. I asked them why they do not chance something on their items or skills. Most of them had trash items. Most where between 50 and 60 There were even people lv 60 with blue gear... I told them what to do and what to look for and gave out some of my trash items. They didn't care much about the story and wanted to pass it as quickly as possible to get to the mapping system. So I explained to them that they will be f*cked hard if they keep this attitude up as the map system gets harder and harder and the gear to start with should be well enough to defeat the Act 3 boss without bigger problems. If not, they start to lose EXP on lv 70 and most of them were actually shocked about this fact.

This kind of player either stops way before it matters or stop because of the EXP loss. Not only because PoE does a shitty job in explaining things but also for the fact that EXP is taken from you.

Yep, once enough people start hitting endgame content, we'll see what the real effect of these punishments is.

Avarcita loves to say it's "player choice" to engage with the difficulty.
It's the player's choice to continue playing the game, as well.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

I talked to a few player in game yesterday... Mostly all of them new players. I asked them why they do not chance something on their items or skills. Most of them had trash items. Most where between 50 and 60 There were even people lv 60 with blue gear... I told them what to do and what to look for and gave out some of my trash items. They didn't care much about the story and wanted to pass it as quickly as possible to get to the mapping system. So I explained to them that they will be f*cked hard if they keep this attitude up as the map system gets harder and harder and the gear to start with should be well enough to defeat the Act 3 boss without bigger problems. If not, they start to lose EXP on lv 70 and most of them were actually shocked about this fact.

This kind of player either stops way before it matters or stop because of the EXP loss. Not only because PoE does a shitty job in explaining things but also for the fact that EXP is taken from you.

Yep, once enough people start hitting endgame content, we'll see what the real effect of these punishments is.

Avarcita loves to say it's "player choice" to engage with the difficulty.
It's the player's choice to continue playing the game, as well.

Yes, You can add all the so-called "difficulty" you want, but for players who aren't "pay-to-win," the result is just frustration. People will choose to leave the game!

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

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peter_pakanun#1941 wrote:

I will ask for it, I'd said: "Please add the xp penalty back, my son keep bashing his head against the wall. He said he's going to lv to 100 with his 0% resist build, and it's been 3 weeks since he leveled to 76 and he's still only halfway to 77"

A rather stupid reply I might add... If someone is playing a 0 resi build and dies, he would die having EXP loss or not. And if you are playing such a class seriously, why not? Why punish people for toying around with options that are offered? The wall will be real with or without EXP loss. And I claim that everyone who attempts something like this is either totally stupid and therefore the EXP loss wouldn't be taken as "think about your build" or he's trying to other stuff.

The joke went over your head I see.

Anyway, if there is xp penalty my son won't be working on lv to 100 with 0 resist because it will be impossible, but when there are no xp penalty my son will take on the challenge as it is still within realm of possibility, hence the joke.

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Fancysalad#2034 wrote:

Grim Dawn which I would rate as my seconds favourite ARPG after POE as well as second best in terms of depth and complexity also utilises XP penalties. I'd be curious what games you'd put forward in the genre that benefited from forgoing the penalty system.

small correction, grim yawn*. t4t

that game doesn't even deserve the letter d