(3.2) [Lighty] 2H RT Cyclone: Dope for Beast League & Lab™

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Gunteraz wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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Gunteraz wrote:

Slayer/Champion/Berserker/Juggernaut, which one of these has the best survivability when it comes to difficult maps/bosses?

Juggernaut, easily. Fortify from champion can be linked into your cyclone through support. Apart from that, Juggernaut has massives amounts of armour, gets rewarded with offensive boosts for running defensively (endurance charges and fortify) and cannot be slowed below base value.

This last one has tremendous effect that seems highly underrated. It means Temporal Chains, Chill and even Freeze has no effect on your movement. Cyclone itself does not slow you below your base speed. (This is a buff)

Speed makes Cyclone safe, so do not underestimate this passive. Good luck!

Thanks for the advice. I have another question tho- This build does not run Vaal Pact, does this mean it can't do reflect maps? I played this build couple years ago on HC and i died at lvl 70-something to a reflect pack that popped up from underground when i wasn't paying attention. Now im going to play SC but i'd hate to not be able to do reflect stuff. Would slayer help with that? With it 50% less phys reflect?
Or is the massive armor Juggernaut gets also going to mitigate similar amount of reflect?

Armour will mitigate physical reflect damage and quite effectively too when it comes to Cyclone. This is because armour suffers when being dealt large hits, it's effectiveness has diminishing returns the larger the hit becomes. Cyclone hits are low damage but very fast, thus armour retains most of it's effectiveness.

Also, Juggernaut has access to more endurance charges than other classes and is rewarded for having them, so a serious consideration is to take the 3 from the passive tree as well. They provide addition physical damage reduction that reduces whatever damage comes through your armour by x%, depending on your amount of charges up at the time.

Is it better than the straight up 50% less damage taken from physical reflect that Slayer gets? I can't say for sure. I'd have to do the math. But I do know that that effect only works on reflect, while armour and physical damage reduction is always useful.

Slayer has much more potent leech potential, but when you mitigate a lot of damage through armour and charges, you also don't require much leech to top yourself off again, in theory. It's the age old debate between mitigation and healing. Which is better is up to you to decide.

Slayer, with the help of leech not stopping on full health, will probably have an easier time staying alive taking constant hard hits from bosses. While Juggernaut will have a harder time, with armour diminishing returns and lower leech potential. Unstoppable will help the Juggernaut to always be able to move away from dangerous hits though, so there's at least an argument to make on both ends.

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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Gunteraz wrote:

Slayer/Champion/Berserker/Juggernaut, which one of these has the best survivability when it comes to difficult maps/bosses?

Juggernaut, easily. Fortify from champion can be linked into your cyclone through support. Apart from that, Juggernaut has massives amounts of armour, gets rewarded with offensive boosts for running defensively (endurance charges and fortify) and cannot be slowed below base value.

This last one has tremendous effect that seems highly underrated. It means Temporal Chains, Chill and even Freeze has no effect on your movement. Cyclone itself does not slow you below your base speed. (This is a buff)

Speed makes Cyclone safe, so do not underestimate this passive. Good luck!

Juggers main issue is spell damage, on a 2h build you won't have spell block, and probaly also won't have spell dodge.

Also since Kaom's roots were changed, Jugger isn't that special anymore.

Slayer and Berserker can play "life sponge" with their insane leech, against any type of damage that doesn't oneshoot.

So I'd rank them...

1. Slayer (insane leech, immunity to bleed)
2. Berserker (a bit weaker: has "increased damage taken" and needs to travel to Vaal Pact)
3. Jugger (one-sided defense, but probably still best against physical damage)
4. Champion (any other class can have fortify uptime as well)

Well, yes, you can play Slayer with Kaom's Roots for the Juggernaut effect of Unstoppable-ish. Or you can play a Juggernaut with Death's Door for the Slayer effect of being immune to bleed.

Juggernaut, imo, still comes out on top. Death's Door bleed immunity is always on and Kaom's Roots miss a line from Unstoppable that has value with Temporal Chains and Chill effects.

Besides, I doubt you could run Kaom's Heart with those boots since you'd miss 10 sockets total, unless you play with the bare minimum of skills and supports. Besides the massive life, I like Death's Door much more as boots. But that's of course just my humble opinion.

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Xavathos wrote:

Well, yes, you can play Slayer with Kaom's Roots for the Juggernaut effect of Unstoppable-ish. Or you can play a Juggernaut with Death's Door for the Slayer effect of being immune to bleed.

Juggernaut, imo, still comes out on top. Death's Door bleed immunity is always on and Kaom's Roots miss a line from Unstoppable that has value with Temporal Chains and Chill effects.

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

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Xavathos wrote:

Yes, that's again basically what I said, with different words...

It's called elaborating. Also you left out the part about Brutality, which is fairly key in this new expansion.

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Peterlerock wrote:

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

You don't. Even with maximum investment in increased damage via Endurance Charges, Juggernaut is flat out weaker (offensively) than Slayer/Berserker. That's the trade-off for automatic endurance charge generation, inordinate damage mitigation, and status immunity.

That said, survivability is much more of a limitation than killing speed. While it may take longer, you only need to be able to deal so much damage. A properly built Starforge, Brutality, BloodMagic (passive), CoH Vuln, with 9-10 Endurance Charges Juggernaut is just about invincible. It may not be a facetanking boss killer like Vaal Pact Berserker, but it's extremely smooth Uber Lab/map farming, with immunity to almost every status effect in the game.

Thank you both for your answers. I'm still quite torn between slayer and juggernaut. I'll need to think about it some more. The whole immunity to bleed thing seems quite irrelevant to me, i always have a flask that removes bleed with me and i don't think i have ever had any problems with it.
How long does the slayer leech last once you are at full health and stop hitting things?

What lvl Cwdt is optimal for using blood rage + molten shell? Is it right to max increased duration every lvl up in this spec?

I run jugger with bloodmagic-gems... What kind of getting endurance-charges will be better for me? Trying now endurance cry, not liked to stop spinning on every pack of mobs. Is it really no good to make Hatred+Hoa and Blasphemy + W Mark incl. enlighten gem?

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

Well, yes, you can play Slayer with Kaom's Roots for the Juggernaut effect of Unstoppable-ish. Or you can play a Juggernaut with Death's Door for the Slayer effect of being immune to bleed.

Juggernaut, imo, still comes out on top. Death's Door bleed immunity is always on and Kaom's Roots miss a line from Unstoppable that has value with Temporal Chains and Chill effects.

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

That wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about the specific case of bleed immunity and Unstoppable. You can get both from items, more or less.

I never said Slayer sucks or has no value. Slayer is one of my favourite ever Ascendancy classes and is probably the best for melee 2H builds all-round. That said, I've played it so much that I want to try something else and Juggernaut has a niche to fill, even if it's not min/max potential.

This...

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Archimtiros wrote:

A properly built (...) Juggernaut is just about invincible. It may not be a facetanking boss killer like Vaal Pact Berserker, but it's extremely smooth Uber Lab/map farming, with immunity to almost every status effect in the game.

That's what I wanted to say.
A Jugg is pretty strong against physical damage.
Maybe even the best class out there.

But a Slayer / VP Berserker is strong against anything and everything the game throws at you.
Because they don't care what sort of damage they take, they just leech it back.

That's why I'd put them way above Jugg in terms of survivability.
They facetank stuff he could never facetank.

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Archimtiros wrote:

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Peterlerock wrote:

... but where in Jugger Ascendancy do you find more damage, more AoE, 20% Cull, Leech doesn't stop when full?

You don't. Even with maximum investment in increased damage via Endurance Charges, Juggernaut is flat out weaker (offensively) than Slayer/Berserker. That's the trade-off for automatic endurance charge generation, inordinate damage mitigation, and status immunity.

That said, survivability is much more of a limitation than killing speed. While it may take longer, you only need to be able to deal so much damage. A properly built Starforge, Brutality, BloodMagic (passive), CoH Vuln, with 9-10 Endurance Charges Juggernaut is just about invincible. It may not be a facetanking boss killer like Vaal Pact Berserker, but it's extremely smooth Uber Lab/map farming, with immunity to almost every status effect in the game.

My thoughts exactly Archimtiros. That's exactly the reason I'm going Juggernaut. Starforge, Brutality, Blood Magic, though I'll go for Blasphemy Vuln with Determination wearing Brass Dome. Rolling through maps and Lab like a good ol' M1 Abrams.

You left nothing else for me to elaborate in regards to your post. ;)