Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

However, let’s not confuse constructive feedback with extreme viewpoints that come across as attention-seeking or trolling.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Why do you think punishment and challenge are disociated ? If there is no risk of punisment, then there is no challenge, and thus no rewards either.

And yet, hundreds of great and challenging games exist without any penalty for dying whatsoever.

Does beating super meatboy mean nothing because you can try as many times as you like?

The challenge comes from beating the content. Full stop.

The punishment does nothing to add to the challenge, it only wastes some time before you can attempt the challenge again.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Why do you think punishment and challenge are disociated ? If there is no risk of punisment, then there is no challenge, and thus no rewards either.

And yet, hundreds of great and challenging games exist without any penalty for dying whatsoever.

Does beating super meatboy mean nothing because you can try as many times as you like?

The challenge comes from beating the content. Full stop.

The punishment does nothing to add to the challenge, it only wastes some time before you can attempt the challenge again.

Espescially, when ggg, dont have much work to do, copy/paste from dungeon siege1/2.
And the biggest

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Let's do one better to destroy your argument and move on ;

1 Why do you think level 100 is mandatory ?

2 Why do you think going from 70 to 100 is the main way of progressing endgame ?

3 Why do you think a build level 70 is not able to play ultra endgame maps ?

4 What do you think would happen if anybody and everybody could potentialy reach level 100 by just playing blindfolded in whatever maps and still get infinite amount of xp ? Why would that be a good game design and rewarding so ?

5 Why do you think punishment and challenge are disociated ? If there is no risk of punisment, then there is no challenge, and thus no rewards either.

6 Why do you think difficulty and tedious are dissociated ? It's difficult because it's tedious among other things. Be careful and don't yolo.

7 Why do you think you deserve to play the endgame if you keep dying over and over again before you reach it?

8 Why do you think playing a level while outgeared is lame if it exactly reduces a lot of chances of dying while still dropping ressources to progress ? Why do you need to play higher level and die there ? For the challenge ? What IS the challenge ? Getting things that feel rewarding ? They feel rewarding because there is a risk of losing them. And you'd lose them by dying. Ho yes, challenge = not dying because of the associated punisment...
So playing lower level maps IS a way of progression. And playing higher level maps FEELs more challenging because of the increase risk of death.

9 Removing death penalty would only completely removes lowers maps meaning as everyone could go blindly into higher tier with no risk, and no challenge, and no rewards either except the feeling that you always progress towards level 100 to feed your ego. This isn't this kind of game.

1) Never thought it, never said it, never implied it and I would never expect it. Prove me otherwise or this question is pure gaslighting - again.

2) The main part of the game - the very essence why I play PoE is the Map system. That's a system I enjoy as the "Dungeons / Maps" are mostly random generated and if I see a stat I hate I can just ignore the Map, sell the Map, merge the Map with 2 others to get a higher level one. (point at damage reflect) I just hate damage reflect... EXP loss or not, I wouldn't play it. But I would never want them to remove is because all these totally odd stats and mods are awesome in way of RNG.

3) A build on level 70 could play ultra endgame content giving the fact hat you actually have a full set of awesome equipment with T8-10 rolls on every item. Been there, done that in PoE 1. The difference are 30 passive skillpoints that are usually minor to T8-10 rolls on items.

Considering the fact that no "normal" player without 10 other build that could farm and create this gear is able to do so on lv 70. And in case you want to imply another gaslight: Nobody with a sane mind would expect to clear endgame content with lv 70 or 80 and maybe not even 90 depending on the build and the items.

4) Do you want to have a chance to think about this question again or want my answer straight? just joking... you get my answer anyway. It's a stupid question though...

The fact of removing the EXP Loss penalty wouldn't automatically mean that people will reach lv 100 any time soon. I go as far and claim that the amount of player that can't reach it now due to dying won't reach it after the EXP removal as well. The only change you could see is, that some people get to 100 faster. Those people would reach lv 100 anyway. But as we pointed out: Reaching lv 100 is not mandatory so it doesn't matter if it takes 3 weeks or 4 weeks. If this kind of player actually stops playing after reaching level 100, then the problem is with him. I have 5 characters in Grim Dawn lv 100. I played all of them for at least 100 more hours to keep farming and changing skill points because I tried to keep the improvement going. People can keep doing this in PoE as well. So being 100 doesn't mean they have to stop playing. That's a solid misconception I saw a few times over the last few days discussing this topic.

5) One more time just for you: EXP-Loss, Map-Loss, Atlas-Mod-Loss, Orbs for Crafting-lost, potential items on the ground lost because the portal is lost, possibility to play in a party is lost as well for me because the effects causing a strain I can't stand. I played with a friend with an Ice build. I have a 32 Inch 4k screen. His ice build caused a HEAVY white snow area and I thought I am blind for a sec. I couldn't look onto the screen... Another buddy playing a minion build. 20-30 blocking my entire view... I don't see any enemy effect, can't dodge roll, can't block... It just gets topped by the fact that a revive is not possible... yes another penalty.

So you telling me that removing the EXP loss would remove the entire Punishment? again: wanna think about this question one more time?

6) Difficult gameplay doesn't and shouldn't go along with tedious gameplay. Because tedious is not difficulty. Being forced to play tedious content because the difficult gameplay can't be attempted due to loss of several hours of game time invested while trying out myself shouldn't be a thing. Even without the EXP Loss I wouldn't yolo... I don't see where you take this idea from. I still lose my map...

7) Yet another gaslight attempt. Why are you trying to be an asshole? Keep in mind that this is a question, not an accusation. Why are you trying to accuse my of things I never said or even implied?

Answer: I don't want to play endgame content with a character that's not fit for it. I want to play content that is close to my level or maybe 1 map tier higher to feel a challenge. I do not plan on starting tier 15 maps while stuck with Tier 7 or 8 ... It would be stupid as hell because I have to play in a way to not lose maps while still getting new maps. So for every map I lose due to dying, I need to find at least 2-3 new Maps to compensate the loss.

8) yet another gaslight... buddy... what the hell are you trying? It's getting ridiculous. I play outgeared maps if I don't have any that fit my level... So I can farm more of them. If I die to often in, let's say Tier 9, to waste all my tier 9 maps, I have to go back and farm in lower maps what so ever. So the game by it's natural mechanics would force me down regardless if there is EXP Loss or not. The EXP loss simply means I'am forced to play lower content and can't choose to attempt something harder.

My current melee build plays with Shield Raise and Dodge roll. I like this mechanic. The feeling of blocking a heavy hit of an Rare or even boss makes so much fun. Playing lower maps simply means I don't need to block or dodge or do any of these mechanics. At this point I could play a 100% glass cannon build and simply farm low maps every 5-7 minutes. This doesn't make anything better for anyone. Again: Risk of death remains because there is enough you can lose while NOT losing EXP.

9) please give me more of it... Removing the EXP Loss wouldn't render lower Maps useless because if you keep dying in higher maps you are automatically forced down to lower maps because you run out of higher maps at one point. If you keep hitting tier 9 while not being able to clear tier 9 you will run out of tier 9 maps... Happened to me with tier 5 maps... I played several tier 3, found Tier 4, played several tier 4 and found Tier 5, finished tier 5 quest, upgraded a few things and can run Tier 6 without any issue now... issue resolved, point debunked That's what I call a solid grind with a goal to work for. Let alone this mechanic is so fun to play for me.

I'm going to pop in and address something mentioned a few times:

"If you're dying, it means your character is undergeared or needs a better build."

That's certainly possible, but it's not the only reason - and I'm not sure it's even the most common reason.

PoE 2 is a game balanced around movement mechanics and dodge rolls. You've got to learn the boss' movesets, get the timing down, and execute properly.

If the boss is really challenging, then even with good telegraphs it will take many players multiple attempts to learn those patterns and nail everything. This is already a problem because of map loss, but let's focus on the topic of this thread:

How does losing XP help the player become mechanically better at the game?
What message is it even sending at that point?

"You've been a bad boy and don't have your dodge rolls down. Now go sit in a corner and run some lower maps while you think about what you've done..."

Here's my big reason why it will hurt the game: Most players, when faced with a tough death penalty, will refuse to take risks. Want to team up? You can't. Not without perfect gear - not worth the risk. How do you get the gear? Either mindless grinding for trading currency, or take some shortcuts - neither of which is good for the health of the game.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

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they fail to respect the player's time.

Respect your own time and stop playing a punishing hard video game you don't like by design ; instead of trying to change it into something it's not.

Nobody is forcing you to play it, nor to complain the forums about your hate and failures. Yet, you waste your time doing so. Why ? Who is to blame for that ?

People like you are to blame for it... Clearly you would eat any shit that's served on your plate. If GGG decided to go with Character loss on Death for Standard League now, you would eat it and like it or you would hate it and stop playing.... Funny perspektive for sure.

Why not trying to get a discussion going to see if you can interact with the developers to make some changes... If it were my game and I see tons over tons of people asking for a change I would make a big announcement to test this change for 1-3 month (hence what early access is for) to see how the entire player base and player fluctuation would react to it. And if more people are playing and spending money for the game, why not leave it like this?

I know that democracy has no place in video games because the developer decides what comes and goes. But serving more players with a simple change while basically not hurting others sounds like a solid trade off.

And I'am 100 % sure nobody would quit because the EXP loss is gone. Because nobody really cares about the EXP loss. most people who want to keep it acting more like they enjoy to see people suffer from a stupid mechanic. And I count you into it. You feel like you are a better human being just by not dying in a video game. :-D Play builds that are not META or overpowered and lets see how many low maps you are running before stopping the character because the progression is boring. ;-) I can only laugh about every single comment you are giving.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

I'm going to pop in and address something mentioned a few times:

Am I the only one here who feels like he's talking to 10 year old kids on rampage? :D

I don't understand why they claim the punishment is gone after EXP loss removal while still having 4-6 (depending on the viewpoint) other punishments remain on death...

Thanks for your support by the way, but it feels like talking with a brickwall. :-D

But as I said initially: I like to get in touch with the devs not with people who's opinion can't be changed. They doesn't accept a single fact I suppose.

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People like you are to blame for it... Clearly you would eat any shit that's served on your plate. If GGG decided to go with Character loss on Death for Standard League now, you would eat it and like it or you would hate it and stop playing.... Funny perspektive for sure.

If I like it, I play it, if I don't like it, I don't play it. Right. That's a "funny perspektive" for you.

The actual real "funny perspektive", is Yours ; you don't like it, and yet you still play it, and even cry about it. That's funny alright. Why do you even do that to yourself, and blame others for it ?

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-snip- StOp gAsLiGtHinG mE with logic, it hurts my feelings ! You need to remove XP loss, remove map loss, remove dodge roll, remove required defense, remove enemy damage, remove player's health bar, reduces map size by 90%, remove visual effect, then and only then you'll have a good game ! Until then, have fun losing all the players because everybody hate your game GGG, I KNOW it.

Yeah... Right. Maybe play something else ?

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

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People like you are to blame for it... Clearly you would eat any shit that's served on your plate. If GGG decided to go with Character loss on Death for Standard League now, you would eat it and like it or you would hate it and stop playing.... Funny perspektive for sure.

If I like it, I play it, if I don't like it, I don't play it. Right. That's a "funny perspektive" for you.

The actual real "funny perspektive", is Yours ; you don't like it, and yet you still play it, and even cry about it. That's funny alright. Why do you even do that to yourself, and blame others for it ?

You know early access has a meaning? It's a game in development that usually likes feedback from it's playerbase. So me giving a feedback - as expected - is funny for you? ... thats hard ... What ever you are taking, take more or less of it. The current level is all but good for your mental state.

The only thing xp loss will do is cause every new player to find some meta build and every single one of them will play that and then lose interest in the game as they can't have fun thinking of new builds or things to do. What's the point of such a large and varying passive grid if people will be locked into one set path? The people saying "get better at the game" mean "go online and find the most busted build in the game, don't think just copy that, and coast to the end of the game" which means they don't want a challenge in reality.

And those new players who don't want to use a meta build and dont like xp loss will just quit the game.

So the entire popularity of the game will just die off and then GGG will get no more money. I'm fairly sure that isn't their goal, so they will absolutely need to do something about this.

Another thing, I've seen people saying that the passives don't give much power, so why bother gating people from it? Isn't the true final boss of this game content instead of hitting level 100? The only real way to get stronger is to get gear, so basically get lucky, so why bother taking away xp?