Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

You have simply made up your mind and refuse to understand. That's all. If you go back and read my post you can see that your response does not really make sense.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

And again: It's not about reaching level 100. It never was... And you can't die your way up to Lv 100 because you don't have the maps available for that. So it's not an argument to say "EXP Loss prevents people from dying in content they are not fit for"

There are two scenarios of dying. The one you described against bugs or unfair one shots. Like I stated multiple times, this is early access, bugs are to be expected, unfair one shots will keep getting addressed. Here the solution is to resolve the one shots. Not removing the XP penalty.

The second one is when players attempt content, their character is not yet fit for. Here the XP penalty is needed as a messaging tool. Because most players want to earn XP, as you prove, the logical train of thought is "Here I cannot earn XP, therefor I lower the difficulty to earn XP". Here the solution is for the player to lower the difficulty.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

All you do by removing the EXP loss is the not make people angry who are emotionally affected by losing part of their progress.

I am ready to invest a map, an atlas mod and orbs for crafting a map... I don't feel the neat to invest 10% EXP for trying how far I can get.

How would removing the XP penalty resolve your issue of getting one shot due to bugs or unfair mechanics?

Should we really believe that removing a small loss in XP for dying will make dying all nice and dandy?

First, I don't believe that. Second, it is not worth for a bandage, that does not even fix the underlying issue, to remove a needed messaging system.

Edit:
But let my try another way. Maybe a more constructive one. I don't know how experienced you are with PoE. Maybe you already have thousands of hours in PoE 1, then I will most likely not be able to help further. But would you be willing to share some information about your build? Maybe there is something I can support with? If you do not want this public, we could talk via PM. For me defenses would be interesting. If you are playing a glass cannon build, it would be more prone for one shots. Are your resistances capped? How much Chaos resistance do you have?

The snakes you described, if I think of the same ones as you, deal Chaos damage and I think this could be a ground effect, so no blocking possible. If your Chaos resistance is low that would explain it for me. Almost one shot me with Mind over Matter, 2000 Health and 2000 Mana and about 40 Chaos resistance at that point.

The first one seems strange to me. If the mob first dealt about 30% damage and then 100%. I think there may be some information missing. Is it possible that you had a break armor debuff? Were you maybe cursed? Was there maybe a ground effect, corpse explosion, something else?

you dnt have to hit 100 level.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

Ok, I am weak, I will try one last time. There are some simple facts in this game.

In PoE the player has 100% control over the difficulty they choose to play. This can be done by selecting the waystone/map tier they use, the mods they roll on them the precursor tablets they use and the additional content they attempt during a map.

Because of this flexibility in difficulty, there is never a real wall a player can hit. If they "hit a wall" it is simply a fictional wall because the player is not willing to forfeit potential better loot from higher difficulties and therefor not reducing the difficulty.

The game always offers you a path to improve your character. If you keep dying over and over again during the core endgame loop, mapping, the solution would be to decrease the difficulty, farm currency/items in easier content and improve the character. This is the natural progression of a game like PoE. Like stated before, many players are just not willing to do this. But that is not on the game. This is their decision. The XP penalty on death is one of the tools the game uses to show players the best and easiest way how not to "hit a wall". Decrease difficulty. Because most players would like to earn XP the logical train of thought would be "Here I cannot earn XP so I decrease the difficulty to earn XP". Some players are just not willing to earn a bit less XP, therefor stick to higher difficulties, keep dying and lose XP instead.

The other scenario is dying from time to time due to bugs or unfair, not yet patched, one shots. This is early access and bugs are to be expected. But if your build is solid in general, then this should not be happening too often. Therefor the death penalty should not have that big of an influence in this case. Regarding unfair one shots. GGG has already begun to address these and is surely trying to improve in that area. So this should not be a regular thing in the future.

The death penalty is mostly effecting players who keep dying over and over again during mapping/farming. This is the game trying to tell the player that the character is not yet ready for that difficulty. Like stated before, exceptional one shots or unlucky deaths may occur from time to time but their effect will be very limited. But if dying is the rule then the player simply chose a difficulty that is too high for the character in the current state. In this situation the player has two choices. Either stick with the higher difficulty and run into a wall on purpose for the small chance of slightly better loot at the cost of XP. Or reduce the difficulty and farm currency/items to improve the character with slightly lower drop chances but overall quicker, due to not dying, and the additional benefit of earning XP.

Builds also have a big influence on the difficulty of content the character can run easily. Some builds are stronger/tankier/easier than others. So called Meta builds are usually very strong and players using them will be able to do higher difficulty maps sooner. If a player wants to play their own build or find their own way, that is totally fine. Most of those players want to try to improve their character themself and overcome obstacles they face. This is an additional difficulty a player chooses to add. Like playing SSF. In this case chances are higher that the player may have to take a step back in difficulty from time to time. If a player has the priority to just rush to the highest difficulty maps as soon as possible, sticking to meta builds is highly recommended. These builds are usually very well tested and already refined.

Losing XP is a choice. Hitting a wall is a choice. Whatever you do and however you want to play the game is up to you. Everything is your choice. Why complain about your own choices?

Whoo first time posting.

I´ll start of with: I´m fine with the current death penalties in endgame - little on the harsher side but manageable.
It does however work completely opposite to how the game teaches you to play itself from lvl 1 to 60 - which is where i think a lot of the frustration voiced in this topic comes from.

In my opinion you´re wrong in your assumptions about difficulty and progression being entirely controlled by the player regardless if you like the current death penalty or not.
With the current penalty systems in place players will reach a point with no natural progression when they outlevel the content their build can comfortably complete a lot - but will die too often in appropriately leveled content to progress in level.

Progression is then entirely controlled by rgn of drops/crafting - which i wouldn´t label as within a players ability to control to 100%. Thats the just nature of rgn.

(Before you point ppl to the AH/Trade: If you can´t play enough prices will start outpacing the ability to earn currency during early/middle season - blocking that line of "progress" during certain time periods - also out of control of the player)


Personally I´d get rid of one of the two death penalties currently in the game - but not both.

I am ok with the xp loss in maps to prevent you from progressing when you are not ready for the content. But it only should let you lose your progression and not let you fall backwards. You should only lose the xp you got in that map that you died in.

POE2
1 death = 1 map lost + all "league" mechanic lost + 15% XP lost + all loot in the floor lost

POE1
1 death = 1 portal lost + 10% exp lost


GGG uses this artificially inflated difficulty as a way to bolster PoE2’s hardcore image, knowing that players will complain and they’ll "adjust" later to strike a balance they likely planned from the start. Its marketing, poor marketing... last epoch slap the GGG face in the opossite way with 250k players for over a month.

It’s widely understood among the Path of Exile community that the current iteration of PoE2's difficulty penalties won’t make it to the official release. The game simply cannot launch in its current state without alienating the majority of its player base. What should really be up for discussion is how much these penalties need to be reduced and which ones should be outright removed because they directly harm the gameplay experience.

Take, for example, the respawn and map reset mechanics. Upon dying, or even completing a boss fight like in the Cemetery map, the entire map resets. Sometimes, you return to find the layout rotated or changed, forcing you to re-explore areas you’ve already cleared just to hand in a quest. This isn’t just frustrating—it’s a glaring design flaw that disrupts the flow of the game and punishes the player in ways that feel arbitrary.

While solutions like showing elites on the minimap or introducing checkpoints might seem like fixes, they’re ultimately just band-aids slapped onto poor design choices.


If GGG insists so much on having a 15% experience penalty, why not simply leave it at 5% instead? Players would enjoy the game more, and those hardcore fans craving punishment could just intentionally die two more times every time they fall to rack up their precious 15%. Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? Yet that’s essentially the logic being defended by those arguing in favor of these harsh penalties.

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yningunay#5135 wrote:

In my opinion you´re wrong in your assumptions about difficulty and progression being entirely controlled by the player regardless if you like the current death penalty or not.
With the current penalty systems in place players will reach a point with no natural progression when they outlevel the content their build can comfortably complete a lot - but will die too often in appropriately leveled content to progress in level.

Progression is then entirely controlled by rgn of drops/crafting - which i wouldn´t label as within a players ability to control to 100%. Thats the just nature of rgn.

Difficulty is controllable. Progression not as much. Those two are asynchronous.

Gear progression can be achieved at any level. I could even farm Act 1 normal for Exalted Orbs if I wanted.

You mentioned level progression. If you farm enemies that are lower level then you, you will receive less XP, correct. But if the build is not able to farm comfortable at the level the player is (because of lacking gear progression), why should the player be able to farm levels there regardless? Here the correct approach is to improve the build/gear before going to these levels.

Also, at some point the player will always be higher level than the area. Since the maximum waystone level is 16 (corrupted tier 15) +1 for Corruption on map +1 for Irradiated. Tier 1 is level 65, so maximum map level of 82? While the player can reach level 100. So starting at level 83 at the latest, the player always outlevels the content.

The primary factor to determine the correct difficulty/level is not the character/area level, but instead the strength/survivabilty of the character. So "appropriately leveled content" in that sense does not really exist.

Or did you mean something else and I misunderstood?

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Samain#6430 wrote:

If GGG insists so much on having a 15% experience penalty, why not simply leave it at 5% instead? Players would enjoy the game more, and those hardcore fans craving punishment could just intentionally die two more times every time they fall to rack up their precious 15%. Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? Yet that’s essentially the logic being defended by those arguing in favor of these harsh penalties.

What would be the benefit of removing/lowering the penalty?

The only players really effected by it are the ones that keep dying over and over again during the endgame loop of farming maps. Do you really thing that getting one, two or maybe three levels and changing their damage bonus from 300% to 330% increased damage would stop them from dying?

What would they gain from keeping dying? Why are they dying in the first place? Dying during farming maps is not the expected/desired outcome. So what is happening?

Is it possible that they attempt content that is too difficult for the current state of their build?

The logic behind defending harsh penalties like the 15% XP loss doesn’t stem from any genuine benefit to the gameplay experience. It’s not because it adds meaningful challenge or depth to the game. Instead, it’s rooted in a mindset where the satisfaction comes from knowing someone else is worse off than you. The argument isn’t about improving the game or creating a more engaging experience—it’s about preference for schadenfreude, the pleasure derived from someone else’s suffering.

This attitude reflects a fundamental problem within certain segments of the community. For some players, the appeal of Path of Exile isn’t the skill it demands or the strategy it encourages but the feeling of superiority over others who struggle more. If you’re not as frustrated or punished as they are, they feel like the experience is being “diluted.”


EVE Online is a perfect example of a game that has clung to outdated, punitive design philosophies for over 21 years. Much like Path of Exile, its systems were less about fostering a challenging or rewarding experience and more about creating barriers that alienated new players. The game built its reputation on its hardcore, unforgiving nature, but this approach led to a steady decline in the player base as it failed to adapt to modern expectations.

It wasn’t until a new company acquired the game and implemented a proper tutorial system that EVE Online began to see growth again. The introduction of these onboarding features made the game more accessible, and for the first time in years, the game experienced an influx of new players. This change highlights how much potential had been wasted by sticking to outdated philosophies that prioritized punishing players over engaging them.

The so-called “hardcore” players of games like Path of Exile had a collective panic attack when the developers hinted in interviews that Path of Exile 2 would involve skill rotations and require actual player skill to succeed. The very idea that they might have to engage with more complex mechanics or showcase genuine ability in combat shook their confidence. But now, they’re all breathing a sigh of relief. Why? Because they’ve realized that the same brain-dead builds—ones where you press a single button (or none at all)—are still perfectly viable, just as they’ve always been.

This satisfaction comes from knowing that the only real requirement to succeed remains sheer time investment, not skill.

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Samain#6430 wrote:

The logic behind defending harsh penalties like the 15% XP loss doesn’t stem from any genuine benefit to the gameplay experience. It’s not because it adds meaningful challenge or depth to the game. Instead, it’s rooted in a mindset where the satisfaction comes from knowing someone else is worse off than you. The argument isn’t about improving the game or creating a more engaging experience—it’s about preference for schadenfreude, the pleasure derived from someone else’s suffering.

This attitude reflects a fundamental problem within certain segments of the community. For some players, the appeal of Path of Exile isn’t the skill it demands or the strategy it encourages but the feeling of superiority over others who struggle more. If you’re not as frustrated or punished as they are, they feel like the experience is being “diluted.”


EVE Online is a perfect example of a game that has clung to outdated, punitive design philosophies for over 21 years. Much like Path of Exile, its systems were less about fostering a challenging or rewarding experience and more about creating barriers that alienated new players. The game built its reputation on its hardcore, unforgiving nature, but this approach led to a steady decline in the player base as it failed to adapt to modern expectations.

It wasn’t until a new company acquired the game and implemented a proper tutorial system that EVE Online began to see growth again. The introduction of these onboarding features made the game more accessible, and for the first time in years, the game experienced an influx of new players. This change highlights how much potential had been wasted by sticking to outdated philosophies that prioritized punishing players over engaging them.

That is just wrong. Lets go through it step by step.

The XP penalty only effects players who keep dying. Why are they dying?

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

You have simply made up your mind and refuse to understand. That's all. If you go back and read my post you can see that your response does not really make sense.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

And again: It's not about reaching level 100. It never was... And you can't die your way up to Lv 100 because you don't have the maps available for that. So it's not an argument to say "EXP Loss prevents people from dying in content they are not fit for"

There are two scenarios of dying. The one you described against bugs or unfair one shots. Like I stated multiple times, this is early access, bugs are to be expected, unfair one shots will keep getting addressed. Here the solution is to resolve the one shots. Not removing the XP penalty.

The second one is when players attempt content, their character is not yet fit for. Here the XP penalty is needed as a messaging tool. Because most players want to earn XP, as you prove, the logical train of thought is "Here I cannot earn XP, therefor I lower the difficulty to earn XP". Here the solution is for the player to lower the difficulty.

"

B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

All you do by removing the EXP loss is the not make people angry who are emotionally affected by losing part of their progress.

I am ready to invest a map, an atlas mod and orbs for crafting a map... I don't feel the neat to invest 10% EXP for trying how far I can get.

How would removing the XP penalty resolve your issue of getting one shot due to bugs or unfair mechanics?

Should we really believe that removing a small loss in XP for dying will make dying all nice and dandy?

First, I don't believe that. Second, it is not worth for a bandage, that does not even fix the underlying issue, to remove a needed messaging system.

Edit:
But let my try another way. Maybe a more constructive one. I don't know how experienced you are with PoE. Maybe you already have thousands of hours in PoE 1, then I will most likely not be able to help further. But would you be willing to share some information about your build? Maybe there is something I can support with? If you do not want this public, we could talk via PM. For me defenses would be interesting. If you are playing a glass cannon build, it would be more prone for one shots. Are your resistances capped? How much Chaos resistance do you have?

The snakes you described, if I think of the same ones as you, deal Chaos damage and I think this could be a ground effect, so no blocking possible. If your Chaos resistance is low that would explain it for me. Almost one shot me with Mind over Matter, 2000 Health and 2000 Mana and about 40 Chaos resistance at that point.

The first one seems strange to me. If the mob first dealt about 30% damage and then 100%. I think there may be some information missing. Is it possible that you had a break armor debuff? Were you maybe cursed? Was there maybe a ground effect, corpse explosion, something else?

Please... for the sake of god. Stop repeating this sh*t over and over. It makes no sense no matter how often you repeat it.

First of all: these bugs exist on PoE 1 - they still do. Go check some more recent videos. Why do they exist on PoE 2? Because they copied large chunks of the code and therefore also these bugs. They haven't fully fixed them in PoE 1 and I doubt they will in PoE 2 as these are usually no real bugs. I bet those are side effects of any algorithm in the background that can't be fixed without a larger rework of some of the calculations. I am a Software Engineer myself. So have quite some experience in Software Quality Tests, bug reports and bug testing.

So stop trying to argue with a point that wasn't a point from the very start. These bugs are not going to be fixed anytime soon. Hence: remove the EXP penalty to prevent loss of progress without the players fault.

Next thing: Why are you not wanting to remove the Map, Atlas, single Portal punishment? You are all about the EXP Penalty as MESSAGE - I literally can't read this anymore. The game is not giving you any message at all. The game is not trying to tell you something. The game has no self awareness. It's the developer who add stuff to make it harder and harder and harder for no real reason. There is no REAL point behind it other than causing more and more frustration around the player base.

And I couldn't care less where people coming from and what games they might have played.

If GGG doesn't want me to attempt some difficulty level that can be called a challenge, why bother to sell the game with this kind of freedom of choice in the first place?

Yeah, EXP loss can be seen as a kind of risk. But yet again: How much risk does it need to be? Why in hell is it not enough to lose the Map, atlas and so on? Why does it have to be the EXP that's sending your so beloved message? It makes literally no sense to argue this way without a valid point.

People here still can't give a single reason for the EXP penalty to stay other than their personal enjoyment to be better than others because they don't die because they are fine with pussy level difficulties.

But guess what: There are player out there that doesn't want to run Tier 3 maps until they have items fit to run Tier 10 maps just because Tier 8 or 9 can't be played due to bugs or because people like a more challenging experience.

Like I said: I basically 1 hit an entire screen with my melee build. This mostly includes rare enemies unless there is a high defence mod on the map.

Being able to 1 hit everything in Tier 5 as well as in tier 7 makes me want to try tier 8 or 9 but I simply can't because trying to find a mix of difficulty and reward will always end in dying at some point. While it's not that bad on lv 80, it will be on 90 or 95. And the problem I see is that I'm basically excluded from some of the challenging gameplay because dying on lv 95 wastes 1-2 weeks of time invested. Sure, I can continue... No pressure in terms of time as this is not a league limited to 3 month. But it's so freaking annoying to die for what ever reason and lose something that's complete out of comparison to anything else. Losing maps or orbs or what ever else can be farmed quite fast. But EXP takes weeks to months at one point. And while I have my christmas vacation now where I can play 12 hours a day, I can only afford about 2 during work days. And some people can't even doing that.

The message as you call it is utter bullshit because wasting several days and weeks of progress for trying out skills, build and items on a difficulty level that's meant to test it, makes no sense. I don't need to test my new weapon in a map tier 5 because it's save. I have to test my gear in a map where I used to die... just to find out... damn... died again. Another month of EXP farming gone. There is simply not a single logical point in that... not one.


Coming to the 2nd part. I wouldn't say I am an well experienced PoE player but certainly a very experienced player in general. I never really played Diablo but tried the 3rd one... wasn't interesting. Grim Dawn 2.000 hours and 5 characters lv 100. Grim Dawn has EXP loss as well by the way. I still managed to get to level them all up without much of an issue because of the way it's played. It's way more forgiving than PoE. And the amount of EXP is like 100 times higher. On lv 99 you can run lv 98 content in terms of difficulty and challenge. In PoE with lv 95 you can't run lv 93 content with the same level of difficulty. So basically to totally different things.

Last Epoch 800 hours with 3 characters but not one is max level as I have to dig deeper into those mechanics but PoE 2 came across.

I play a melee Boneshatter build with 2200 HP, 59% armor 64% block F: 90% Co: 92% L: 101% Ch: 74% resi.

You are right, the snake head monsters deal Chaos damage but the shield explicit states "Block all blockable damage" And any kind of projectile can be blocked by the shield. Tried it like 1000 times in the story. Only ground effects, area effects and heavy boss attacks can't be blocked. While boss attacks that have a physical component can be blocked. And we are not talking about the BLOCK value on the shield. I talk about the "raise shield" skill you have an every shield that can be used with every class. Even a mage can use this mechanic.

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How would removing the XP penalty resolve your issue of getting one shot due to bugs or unfair mechanics?

It doesn't solve the bug but it would clearly making this bug way way less annoying. If you don't believe it read throu all the comments here.

It's not a small loss as I stated further up... I wouldn't give a shit if it wouldn't take days or weeks to grind this back. But while I grind the EXP back I get more of the same of what I already have. I am lv 80, have 6 divine and 120 Exalted.... sure I can buy porno endgame gear but that would be soooo lame. I want to attempt to craft most of it myself. So it's fine for me to grind it. But while doing so I want "more" than just 1 hit kill the entire map. I don't see how someone can't understand this at all. Like I said a few times. I do not thing I am entailed to reach lv 100 with every build but I want to try and create builds (without checking guides) and try to get as high as possible without losing EXP. And if - at some point - i hit a wall and die 100 times WHILE improving my items than I have to accept that this is the limit for my build. But getting kicked back to 0% EXP on every attempt just doesn't feel right. While it is true that 10 more skillpoints won't rescue a trash build, I would still like to get the chance to get "just one point more" to play around with my passives and maybe find a combination that works better than the prev. But I can't test it because I can't get anywhere... At this point it's no punishment. It's frustration.

POE2
1 death = 1 map lost + all "league" mechanic lost + 15% XP lost + all loot in the floor lost

POE1
1 death = 1 portal lost + 10% exp lost


Yes, it's self-explanatory. Everyone knows that the game won’t launch in its current state.

Do you remember when, in early access, we had to farm the first act until we found two cold resistance rings to beat Merveil with several classes? In that same time, today a player can complete the entire campaign.


Believing that this poor design would remain shows a lot of naivety.