From what we've seen so far, do you feel you're going to stay with PoE1 or move to PoE2?

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1453R wrote:

Why do people assume Grinding Gear is lying about supporting and developing both games in the future...

Again, it's not about them "lying". I fully believe that they are intending/wanting/planning to develop both games simultaneously - in good faith. But shit happens and things change. That's the thing about the future; you can plan with the best intentions, but very rarely have full control.

they already only have a 8 man team for poe1. im sure that wont change going forward

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ElfBoy wrote:

Your presenting a false choice.

I can, and likely will, play both.

Or you could play Minecraft. Assuming people can split their time between the separate activities. What is the size of this overlapping circle? Or are we to believe this overlapping circle is sustainably large. I believe this overlapping circle would be considerable small with extraordinary time demand of such games. Essentially there are a lot more complexities.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

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Draegnarrr wrote:

As everyone else loves bringing up Elden ring/DS

I was about to comment this. If there's a dodge roll, it needs to have i-frames. It's not gonna work without them. Especially when it has a cooldown attached to it.

I've played other ARPGs and other Souls games where they had a dodge roll but no i-frames. Can't put any names to them right now off the top of my head, but let me tell you: it sucked. You'd then either use certain skills that re-positioned you anyway, or invest into more movement speed so that you could just run out of the way. And Souls-likes without i-frames is a no-no.

What you, and many other people in this thread, fail to realize is that you cannot compare things like that in a vacuum.

Adding an i-frames dodge roll to your game can and will restrict your design space. The reason it works in souls-like games, is because the variables present in combat are very simplistic.

The way you can build your character has numerous restrictions, there is no way to double, or triple your movement/cast/attack speed. The way to scale your defences is very rudimentary, the same goes for damage output.

Going further, a large portion of your enemies' move-set is designed to be avoidable _only_ by dodge rolling out of it, irrespective of how you build/equip/play your character.

All of the above allow for the existence of a spammable i-frame roll, since most players will be in - more or less - similar space in terms of their hp/damage output.

Now imagine having that in poe where differences in characters attempting the same encounter are in fact very often counted in orders of magnitude.
How would you ever balance that?

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1453R wrote:

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

And I still think that whole divided crowd pleasing is doomed to fail. One of them is gonna die, it's just a matter of which and after how long.

Why?

i agree with most of your larger points in the thread as ever. but just a note on top here, not only 'why?' as in why in the shorter term must be a thing? but also in the grand scheme '..and?'



nothing lasts forever. we wont last forever, and the longer you live the more you get a sense of what a short space in time we really do occupy this reality for. eventually both of these games will fully die and the servers will be shut down, might be 10 years, 20, 30, neither game is immortal.

the likelyhood is that poe1 is gonna keep existing as long as people are playing it and it supports itself, eventually that will get to a critical level and the game will probably go into the same pattern as diablo 3 where they work out about 8 previous leagues they can just put on a fixed 2 year cycle and halt all new development. some day it will be so bad the servers will be shut down.


like ur saying its probably us who decides that, the player base, not ggg. we are the ones who are going to eventually abandon poe1, when we all stop playing the game then the game will cease paying for their ongoing dev time and they will be forced to abandon it.



obviously that will happen some day and ggg isnt pretending it wont. that would happen with or without poe2.

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LordFluffy1234 wrote:

My problem with poe is the best stuff is just too rare. "oh you need 2 voice jewels with 1 useless passive? farm simulacrum for a month or pay 4 mirrors" haha.

i dunno, i have mixed feelings on that.


i was 31 when i first started playing this game. i was a freelance graphic designer so i could decide my own hours, i can pound adobe every waking hour this week and maybe make £1000 or i can do the bare minimum, earn £300, pay my bills and then spend 65 hours grinding poe like a madman.

i chose to sacrifice earning a lot more money to no life grind this game willingly and had a ton of fun doing it.


im 42 now and i really just dont give a shit any more. ive put 20k hours into this game, i got no drive to hard grind it, probably will never have again for this game or any game. i got serious irl work to do, i got other hobbies taking my time. i think the crowd for poe has got old with the game and i think collectively our patience for the game is a lot lower than it was, its not just me.





at the same time tho, no one needs those voices jewels. you want them, you dont need them, theres probably nothing your build can do with them it couldnt do with something thats a fraction of the rarity and cost. its literally pob dps that you want to have as a flex. and thats fine btw.

but part of why you can flex in poe is because stuff is so rare. nothing is really rare in diablo 3 or 4 and thats why everything in those games is meaningless. you cant really flex anything, you dont really want things that much. part of what has made poe and kept poe is that through everything theres always been mirrors, S tier rares and a few select uniques that have been truly impossible for 99.99% of players to get. its a loot hunt rng game and the jackpot has always been the megabillions jackpot, its kept that excitement, its always mattered. you dont need it, but you really, really, really want it.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

"

arandan wrote:

What you, and many other people in this thread, fail to realize is that you cannot compare things like that in a vacuum.

[...]

Now imagine having that in poe where differences in characters attempting the same encounter are in fact very often counted in orders of magnitude.
How would you ever balance that?

There's your problem: You are looking at it with a PoE 1 mindset. They are not the same, so don't treat them the same. The moment I read "Now imagine having that in poe" is the moment I clicked out.

You crop out all the context from that statement and then proceed to throw a temper tantrum, instead of addressing/understanding the actual argument.

Answer the question that was posed.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

If you go back and read the stuff shortly before it, i.e. "overhead swings bypass your block", "you can block from one direction" etc., you will see that the game design is completely different, similar to other games I've already played, i.e. Vikings and Wolcen, to name two.

Active block will be just one aspect of that particular mitigation system - one of many such systems. That is the point of the argument you're attempting to 'refute'. If you add i-frames to dodge roll, you might as well remove active blocking altogether, since it'd serve the same purpose.
That is why i-frames limit your design capability in a game with complex character/item custiomisation, the same goes for instant travel skills.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

That's irrelevant regarding i-frames, because not only did you get it wrong "only way to avoid damage", but it's also completely different core game design.

Semantics it is then. Not the only way to avoid damage, but hands down the most effective and thus in optimal play - the only way.
Also, souls being different core game design was my point - I'm not the one that made that comparison - you were.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

...are you aware that you can block in Souls games? Elden Ring also grants i-frames on the jump (for the lower body half). I-frames are not limiting anything when the simple, most basic "balance" tweak you can make is to give it the dodge a short cooldown, like (almost) every other game does that has them, unless there's a Stamina system in place.

Yes you can block in souls games - why would you though?

You've tied yourself in knots, my friend.

thats kind of irrelevant tho. for a start the game has 100 new bosses, its not going to be tuned around those legacy bosses.

it also still stands, when exarch does his massive explosion it zones you to the edge to escape it. if you could just stand in the middle of it and press roll when its about to explode to ignore the entire mechanic that would be silly, you just lose the ability to use aoe hit damage to deny area for the player, youre giving up a whole design space of mechanics that make combat interesting and engaging, one of the most skill based, play based ones rather than passive attribute checks.



you cant have a roll give you iframes through an aoe, it doesnt work in terms of gameplay or even the logic of whats happening. if someone shoots an arrow at you and you drop to the floor and roll you could dodge the arrow. if someone drops a nuke on your city you cant avoid taking damage because you rolled on the floor when the blastwave was about to hit you.



poe2 has a dodge roll, it has iframes so you can use it to avoid certain kinds of damage, thats good and provides good gameplay, it wont work against aoe because that would be bad and provide bad gameplay. you guys are back and forth on this but its in the game, theyve done it the way theyve done it on purpose and its probably the best way to do it. the game is going to be built and balanced around the way they have implemented it.