Divines per hour more important than fun

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Vennto wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

Due to how gamble-crafting in this game works, trade is almost always the fastest way to progress.

Nope, and no matter how often u repeat it, this is factually not correct. Why would the most wealthy players always be crafters, if crafting was so luck-based like u frame it? Unless we are talking mirror tier crafting it is in most any cases better to craft than to buy on trade.

You are stating the obvious exception to those norms which is unless you are the top players or hyper efficient crafters, that is generally correct.

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Vennto wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

Due to how gamble-crafting in this game works, trade is almost always the fastest way to progress.

Nope, and no matter how often u repeat it, this is factually not correct. Why would the most wealthy players always be crafters, if crafting was so luck-based like u frame it? Unless we are talking mirror tier crafting it is in most any cases better to craft than to buy on trade.

Its amusing your own counterpoint proves what I was saying.

If the wealthiest player are crafters, then who is buying all this crafting?

If you were correct, then no one would be buying, it would be more efficient for them to craft. Unless you are wrong, or just not accounting for the entire picture.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

There is no real right or wrong way if it is your playstyle, but its especially silly to discount a progression-based metric.

Except people who use it frequently forget that the players they are emulating generally enjoy the strategy they play to begin with and that when they don't they are making a choice for financial reasons now so they can have fun later.

That is basically a definition of a job, if you want another job sure use rate statistics to measure your efficiency and hit KPI targets for div generation but if its about fun you'd do better to change your mentality to measure specifics less..... If you measure the rate and it makes you feel like things are garbage though you are self sabotaging your own enjoyment.

I dont know, I think back to the many MMOs where grinding was a thing.

You literally just killed things over and over to gain experience to make your character stronger. And maybe gain loot in the process.

Very few people thought the grinding itself was fun, there was no real challenge, not much skill. But they did enjoy the rewards of the stronger character in their MMO world.

A job is a reasonable analogy, or going to the gym to get stronger.

PoE is not unlike that on SSF or trade, you either grind out the crafting mats or you grind out the currency.


It seems reasonable for people to optimize to achieve their main goal (progression), while asking GGG to make the optimal paths to progression diverse and fun.

Fair point trixxar though I think MMOs were limited in what they could provide outside of the grind - i'm not saying progression isn't enjoyable or a goal either just that even in an MMO if you choose activity based only on xp/hr you are going to be cutting down your enjoyment substantially.

Almost everybody I know has played an MMO at some point and grinded in them, but barely any of them ever knew what was efficient they just played what worked for them as long as they got where they were going.

That original less measured approach has become less common over time however because the internet is readily available and constantly highlighting our supposed deficiencies so players try to min/max themselves out of fun fairly regularly.

As they say comparison is the death of happiness or something like that and it applies very much here, there are plenty of players who will be having a great time until they find out their "fun" wasn't as rewarding as someone elses when realistically its irrelevant. The purpose is to be entertained.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

The purpose is to be entertained.

Perspective.

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trixxar wrote:

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Vennto wrote:

"

trixxar wrote:

Due to how gamble-crafting in this game works, trade is almost always the fastest way to progress.

Nope, and no matter how often u repeat it, this is factually not correct. Why would the most wealthy players always be crafters, if crafting was so luck-based like u frame it? Unless we are talking mirror tier crafting it is in most any cases better to craft than to buy on trade.

Its amusing your own counterpoint proves what I was saying.

If the wealthiest player are crafters, then who is buying all this crafting?

If you were correct, then no one would be buying, it would be more efficient for them to craft. Unless you are wrong, or just not accounting for the entire picture.

The picture u referring to is the missing knowledge about crafting. People buy stuff because they are eigher risk averse, meaning they want results 100% secure, or they dont know how to produce items,which can only be solved by learning it which takes a lot of time and a bit of trial and error

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trixxar wrote:

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Draegnarrr wrote:

"

trixxar wrote:

There is no real right or wrong way if it is your playstyle, but its especially silly to discount a progression-based metric.

Except people who use it frequently forget that the players they are emulating generally enjoy the strategy they play to begin with and that when they don't they are making a choice for financial reasons now so they can have fun later.

That is basically a definition of a job, if you want another job sure use rate statistics to measure your efficiency and hit KPI targets for div generation but if its about fun you'd do better to change your mentality to measure specifics less..... If you measure the rate and it makes you feel like things are garbage though you are self sabotaging your own enjoyment.

I dont know, I think back to the many MMOs where grinding was a thing.

You literally just killed things over and over to gain experience to make your character stronger. And maybe gain loot in the process.

Very few people thought the grinding itself was fun, there was no real challenge, not much skill. But they did enjoy the rewards of the stronger character in their MMO world.

A job is a reasonable analogy, or going to the gym to get stronger.

PoE is not unlike that on SSF or trade, you either grind out the crafting mats or you grind out the currency.


It seems reasonable for people to optimize to achieve their main goal (progression), while asking GGG to make the optimal paths to progression diverse and fun.

Depending on how far back you go in MMORPGs, grinding was fun for two reasons.

Gear/Exp with led to player progression
AND
Interaction with people in your party. Don't discount this part. A lot of shy/introverted people found a place to chat.

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jdp29 wrote:

Depending on how far back you go in MMORPGs, grinding was fun for two reasons.

Gear/Exp with led to player progression
AND
Interaction with people in your party. Don't discount this part. A lot of shy/introverted people found a place to chat.

Ahh good old time when we could leave account active for 24h to skill on trolls… Or other game where we were perfectly fine waiting one week for raid reset to have another chance to get a gearpeace we and other raid members want… And that was the only way to get better gear. Or grind rep for days to unlock entrance to the dungeon. Back then less people cared to calculate their fun with gold/hour metric. good old early 2000 (not the exact year, years in that decade).

edit: ever grinded fishing or insane in the membrane before rework?
Edit2: we didint had „Respect my time, give me stuff for free” gamer mentality back then

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Nomancs wrote:

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jdp29 wrote:

Depending on how far back you go in MMORPGs, grinding was fun for two reasons.

Gear/Exp with led to player progression
AND
Interaction with people in your party. Don't discount this part. A lot of shy/introverted people found a place to chat.

Ahh good old time when we could leave account active for 24h to skill on trolls… Or other game where we were perfectly fine waiting one week for raid reset to have another chance to get a gearpeace we and other raid members want… And that was the only way to get better gear. Or grind rep for days to unlock entrance to the dungeon. Back then less people cared to calculate their fun with gold/hour metric. good old early 2000 (not the exact year, years in that decade).

edit: ever grinded fishing or insane in the membrane before rework?
Edit2: we didint had „Respect my time, give me stuff for free” gamer mentality back then

Never have, will, or wanted to grind fishing. No point to it. It didn't make my character better, and it was boring. Haven't played one game where I've maxxed it out or enjoyed it.

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Nomancs wrote:

we didint had „Respect my time, give me stuff for free” gamer mentality back then

There's a big difference from "freeloaders" to "people that want their time respected", but for some reason it's always sown together with some bullshit excuse as to why both are the same. There's zero reason to keep nerfing stuff, even more so now that the entirety of PoE1 was basically disavowed.

And ironically, how is that hurting your fun, how others are having their fun?