ExileCon Put My Support Into a Conflicted Place

"

Nubatron wrote:

Here, I'll break it down easily for you:

Did they say that POE1 and POE2 shared an end game, meaning you could choose which campaign to play and further implying that POE1 would remain intact alongside POE2 in terms of joined leagues/mechanics?

Spoiler

They did.

Here is problem with imagining things. Who said anything about shared end-game being exactly "intact PoE1". Considering the scope of the changes to the core system it was rather obvious that end-game mechanics have to adjusted in some way.

Again, this what PoE2 going to do, include PoE1 end-game league mechanics.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Did they say that several POE2 systems (skill gem revamp as an example) would also be coming to POE1 since they were the same game?

Spoiler

Yes, they did

From the very beginning, PoE2 was meant to be very different game than PoE1

There was never talk about PoE1 being part of PoE2.
The only talk was about including "PoE1 campaign" in PoE2 and somehow converting standard characters and items.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Did they say that updated character models for POE1 were coming with POE2?

Spoiler

Again, yes.

No, they definatelly said they are coming to PoE2 and that you will be able to play "PoE1 campaign" using those models.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Did they know that the game was not going to be joined years ago?

Spoiler

Yes, they did. It does appear to be 2021 and not 2020. That is correct. To be clear, 2021 was years(!) ago.

Did they have years to tell us about the change, but did not?

Spoiler

Yes, yes they did.

Development, marketing and business decisions are not made in just a moment. By the time they finalize details of those it might have been already close to Exilecon.

Nonetheless I agree with you slightly, they could probably share that information a bit earlier. maybe a year ago, if they had all parts of it finalized. But, if they finalized it was just 9-6 months before Exilecon 2023 then I probably it was right call to wait with announcement for the big event.

In regards to public relations, they were never perfect, they made a lot of mistakes. Anyway I wouldn't accuse them of any malicious intent here or lying, as you did.

Imagine if they announced it too early and the had to back out of it. Hmm, some people could get very emotional.

Then please tell, at which point between April 2021 Act2 reveal and Exilecon 2023, they actually lied.

If you use your logic they were also "lying" in 2016, 2017 and 2018. Because it was then when they started thing about reworking skill system and overall opening the game to wider audience. So, people who supported them in 2016-2018 period, should feel scammed as well. Or, should they...

"

Nubatron wrote:

Is a lie of omission a lie?

Spoiler

Do I really need to answer this? Yes. It is.

You really failed to actually address any of my points or reflect on them.

You are just stuck with you disappointment. In my opinion it is mostly caused because you had some very unfounded vision of what PoE2 will be.
You kind of fail to acknowledge that PoE2 was and is still is in active developments and details can and will change.

The same you really try to exaggerate "negative" aspects of actually keeping PoE1 alive. Yes, there are some, but positives greatly outweighs them.

"

Raycheetah wrote:

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Mikrotherion wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

[...]

Although the news about PoE2 sound good to me, I understand your feeling. I was in the same situation when they suddenly announced a console port.

However, I've never been a big spender on PoE, so I still spend some money if I feel like it and don't worry where it goes.

Anyway, hope you'll find your fears were unnecessary and PoE gets updates and/or you find that PoE2 is also a game you like.

Heyya, Mikro.

I dunno how much of the uproar (both sides) you've read, but some folks are experiencing a real "crisis of faith," if you will, after the announcement about PoE II not being the upgrade to PoE 1 it was promoted as. A lot of that comes down to having supported for the last four years based on what Chris told us at Exilecon 2019, only to discover that the bulk of that support was funneled off to make PoE 2 a separate game.

And now, especially having heard how Jonathan (team lead on PoE II) badmouthed PoE 1 in interviews at Exilecon, and the fact that Chris promised us that PoE 1 would receive ongoing support with the same mouth he made the promises he did in 2019, lend to sense of no confidence in GGG's long-term support for PoE 1.

I dunno where you stand on all of that, but I hope you're in a better place than many of the rest of us are, where these two games are concerned. ='[.]'=

Im dissapointed
Promised that Poe 1 and 2 had seperate campaigns same endgame(maps)
Now we get whatever this is (poe2) with some strange questionable stuff
Most of all ... gold drops

"

Reid777 wrote:

"

Nubatron wrote:

Here, I'll break it down easily for you:

Did they say that POE1 and POE2 shared an end game, meaning you could choose which campaign to play and further implying that POE1 would remain intact alongside POE2 in terms of joined leagues/mechanics?

Spoiler

They did.

Here is problem with imagining things. Who said anything about shared end-game being exactly "intact PoE1". Considering the scope of the changes to the core system it was rather obvious that end-game mechanics have to adjusted in some way.

Again, this what PoE2 going to do, include PoE1 end-game league mechanics.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Did they say that several POE2 systems (skill gem revamp as an example) would also be coming to POE1 since they were the same game?

Spoiler

Yes, they did

From the very beginning, PoE2 was meant to be very different game than PoE1

There was never talk about PoE1 being part of PoE2.
The only talk was about including "PoE1 campaign" in PoE2 and somehow converting standard characters and items.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Did they say that updated character models for POE1 were coming with POE2?

Spoiler

Again, yes.

No, they definatelly said they are coming to PoE2 and that you will be able to play "PoE1 campaign" using those models.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Did they know that the game was not going to be joined years ago?

Spoiler

Yes, they did. It does appear to be 2021 and not 2020. That is correct. To be clear, 2021 was years(!) ago.

Did they have years to tell us about the change, but did not?

Spoiler

Yes, yes they did.

Development, marketing and business decisions are not made in just a moment. By the time they finalize details of those it might have been already close to Exilecon.

Nonetheless I agree with you slightly, they could probably share that information a bit earlier. maybe a year ago, if they had all parts of it finalized. But, if they finalized it was just 9-6 months before Exilecon 2023 then I probably it was right call to wait with announcement for the big event.

In regards to public relations, they were never perfect, they made a lot of mistakes. Anyway I wouldn't accuse them of any malicious intent here or lying, as you did.

Imagine if they announced it too early and the had to back out of it. Hmm, some people could get very emotional.

Then please tell, at which point between April 2021 Act2 reveal and Exilecon 2023, they actually lied.

If you use your logic they were also "lying" in 2016, 2017 and 2018. Because it was then when they started thing about reworking skill system and overall opening the game to wider audience. So, people who supported them in 2016-2018 period, should feel scammed as well. Or, should they...

"

Nubatron wrote:

Is a lie of omission a lie?

Spoiler

Do I really need to answer this? Yes. It is.

You really failed to actually address any of my points or reflect on them.

You are just stuck with you disappointment. In my opinion it is mostly caused because you had some very unfounded vision of what PoE2 will be.
You kind of fail to acknowledge that PoE2 was and is still is in active developments and details can and will change.

The same you really try to exaggerate "negative" aspects of actually keeping PoE1 alive. Yes, there are some, but positives greatly outweighs them.

I'm going to be honest, this might be my last response to you as you're really missing the point and my patience is limited with everything around this game.

I'm also going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're misattributing certain things to me accidentally and not creating strawman arguments on purpose.

They said shared end game with your choice of two campaigns. There is no way to interpret that as anything other than the same game. No amount of gymnastics will change my mind on that. But even if there was some twisted way to interpret that as two different games, they admitted that they eventually realized they had to be separate games. Admitting they eventually realized that means it was in fact originally one game. There is no gymnastics to get beyond that point.

I never said that POE1 would remain the same or "intact" if I'm using your words. This is a strawman or a misattribution to me. In fact, I understood there would need to be compromises to make the two games meet. I never said otherwise. My point has always revolved around POE1 receiving the updates they said they would receive.

"

No, they definatelly said they are coming to PoE2 and that you will be able to play "PoE1 campaign" using those models.

Distinction without a difference.

"

Development, marketing and business decisions are not made in just a moment. By the time they finalize details of those it might have been already close to Exilecon.

Nonetheless I agree with you slightly, they could probably share that information a bit earlier. maybe a year ago, if they had all parts of it finalized. But, if they finalized it was just 9-6 months before Exilecon 2023 then I probably it was right call to wait with announcement for the big event.

In regards to public relations, they were never perfect, they made a lot of mistakes. Anyway I wouldn't accuse them of any malicious intent here or lying, as you did.

Imagine if they announced it too early and the had to back out of it. Hmm, some people could get very emotional.

Then please tell, at which point between April 2021 Act2 reveal and Exilecon 2023, they actually lied.

If you use your logic they were also "lying" in 2016, 2017 and 2018. Because it was then when they started thing about reworking skill system and overall opening the game to wider audience. So, people who supported them in 2016-2018 period, should feel scammed as well. Or, should they...

The lie was withholding that critical information for years, even though we've been discussing the one game, two campaigns idea the whole time on the forum. If you've been around here enough, you've noticed the pedantic conversations around POE2 vs POE 4.0 and how it didn't really matter because they are the same game. I don't care that they changed their mind. I care that they didn't tell us for years. I also want POE1 to continue getting development and don't care much about POE2. I don't want my money going toward a game I don't care about, and have no avenue to fund the game I want to play. But that's the natural state of business. I accept it and know that since I have no control over where my money goes, I won't spend (my other issues aside).

"

You really failed to actually address any of my points or reflect on them.

You are just stuck with you disappointment. In my opinion it is mostly caused because you had some very unfounded vision of what PoE2 will be.
You kind of fail to acknowledge that PoE2 was and is still is in active developments and details can and will change.

The same you really try to exaggerate "negative" aspects of actually keeping PoE1 alive. Yes, there are some, but positives greatly outweighs them.

Your points were either not accurate or relevant to this thread. I don't care what brought them to the point of separating the games. I only cared about the deception. You don't agree that it was deception, I suppose because you think omitting it from us for years was okay. We can disagree on that point.

I don't care about POE2. I don't care about the development decisions that went into it. It's all about the game I do care about and what they said. I'm not interested in somehow twisting history and pretending that they were not one game at ExileCon 2019. That feels indisputable to me.

Anyway -- I think you're missing the point of this thread. I'm not sure it's worth us going back and forth more because of missed point of this thread.

"

Nubatron wrote:

Snip

I think the problem is that they arent very communicative. If they told us when they changed their plans, it would have hit people like yourself a lot softer.

Anyway I think POE1 will continue with the changes but POE1 will first and foremost be for less PCs. And there is only so much you could do with that.

That said I think it is a good idea to keep the games separate and have 2 distinct styles of POE.

I think also they will improve the graphics and animations over the next 5 years when it is absurd to cater to people with PCs over a decade old.

I wonder if POE1 will continue, for the next 10 months, to be the testing ground for POE2 concepts and game elements. I would hope GGG would begin with 3.22 to let it spin in its own new direction.

@reid777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM5SFgYbTaY

The above link is to Exilecon 2019.

At 1:01:16. The screen specifically says 1 game 2 campaigns.

I think this is what people mean when they say it was supposed to be the same game.

To be honest, I never heard anything about it being split into 2 games till Exilecon 2023 but I suppose that is my fault.

From the reaction of the audience, I do not think most of them knew either.

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@Nubatron - I always enjoy your posts. I was very excited (still am) about the split. I hope you are around for it, it will be nice to see how things end up. From the spirited conversations, it feels like some are not reading your posts or interpreting them as they see fit instead of your point of view. I doubt you will be able to change that, so just have a glass of your favourite beverage instead.

As ForeverHappyChan (yes, Charan (Ruler of Wraeclast), I know who you are) said, no one said what the $ would be used for however, I would like to think that the $ is being used for future expansions in PoE1 for the enjoyment of everyone. I am sure some of it is.

My take on supporting has always been this. I am hopefully giving the developers a bonus for the league. I either enjoyed it or loved the MTX. Either way, they should be appreciated. I am also hoping to contribute towards resources for the next league.

Had they outright asked me for support for PoE2, I would have given it, willingly.

I was not around for the start of this game but did they not open it up to people & take contributions before starting PoE1?

From the WIKI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_Exile
During closed beta, by 21 January 2013, Path of Exile received US$2.2m in crowd-sourced contributions

Maybe the same thing for PoE2 would have been better.

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Nubatron wrote:

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Reid777 wrote:

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Nubatron wrote:

I enjoy POE1 and thought improvements were coming to POE1 because that's what they said. My support has been based upon that illusion.

I see you are still the denial phase.

First the "improvements" you were expecting are what actaully PoE2 is (or will be)

Second, PoE2 was never meant to be and "an improvements to PoE1", it was meant to be complete overhaul of the game, including all of it's systems.

The information was available at Exilecon 2019, during various dev panels, during steamer playthroughs and on the website.

The problem he is that what "you tough" was very different than what was officially presented in 2019. You have your own personal vision of what PoE2, now you are disappointed. Well, t makes sense, but it is situation you created by yourself, it is not developers fault.

You can stop responding to me. You've clearly not been reading my comments. Save yourself the trouble, as your rationalizations mean nothing to me. If you want to respond, try to respond to my actual point, which is that they said one thing and then knew it was wrong almost immediately, and continued to let us think that for over 3 years.

If you have a response to that, I'll be happy to discuss, because that's the core of where I am at this point.

LMAO, he's right and you're wrong. And your rational argument is “stop responding to me" HAHAHAHAHA zooooooooom

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ZenJelly wrote:

LMAO, he's right and you're wrong. And your rational argument is “stop responding to me" HAHAHAHAHA zooooooooom

Nubatron is not wrong, Their very obvious rational response here was to disengage when conversation is not possible between two.

I was reading that conversation and found it quite painful because one side is providing a wealth of proof and the other is just providing a mountain of arguments and no proof, Though if by some chance they did post any proof feel free to call me out on it i just couldn't read all of that running in place.

What your stance here anyway? I would like to hear your personal thoughts on the topic should you have any.

"

Ahewaz wrote:

@reid777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM5SFgYbTaY

The above link is to Exilecon 2019.

At 1:01:16. The screen specifically says 1 game 2 campaigns.

I think this is what people mean when they say it was supposed to be the same game.

To be honest, I never heard anything about it being split into 2 games till Exilecon 2023 but I suppose that is my fault.

From the reaction of the audience, I do not think most of them knew either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This unfortunate problem, that people focused just on one bit of the information, instead of digesting whole.

It seems that focusing on this one headline people got absolute misconception what PoE2 was and still is meant to be.

It looks like people though that they will be able to still play PoE1 as was, within PoE2 ecosystem, somehow. That was never in the books.

It was advertised and then further explained that, yes 2 separate campaigns will lead to the same end game. At the same time it has been highlighted (yes Exilecon 2019) that basically every core game system will be reworked. In practice it meant that PoE1, at least on the systems level, would be no more.



I never advocated that we knew about "the split" in 2019.
What I advocate is that we knew that PoE2 will be very different game from PoE1.
We also knew that PoE2 will replace PoE1.


Why it is relevant?
Because it is not much different from what we are getting now, except that we get to keep PoE1 too.
People try paint "the split" as something dramatic, shattering, negative and opposite to what was "promise". While, in practice, what we are loosing is ability to play PoE1 campaign in PoE2, which probably most people wouldn't do anyway. The second thing that is lost (in context of PoE2), are old standard items and characters, which would be probably unusable anyway (in most cases) due to the conversion process.

And, we want to talk about surprises, if you look at might post from about 5-6 months ago, you will find that I strongly suspected that we will get 2 separate experiences. It just made sense, based on available information.

I just would like encourage others to have more rational approach instead of focusing on negative drama.

It would be also nice to have less misinformation spread among this community. The misinformation that has been spread here, on reddit and other platforms, by members of the very same community is part of the reason why we have group of misinformed people, who feel very disappointed now, like the OP.

"

Reid777 wrote:

"

Ahewaz wrote:

@reid777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM5SFgYbTaY

The above link is to Exilecon 2019.

At 1:01:16. The screen specifically says 1 game 2 campaigns.

I think this is what people mean when they say it was supposed to be the same game.

To be honest, I never heard anything about it being split into 2 games till Exilecon 2023 but I suppose that is my fault.

From the reaction of the audience, I do not think most of them knew either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This unfortunate problem, that people focused just on one bit of the information, instead of digesting whole.

It seems that focusing on this one headline people got absolute misconception what PoE2 was and still is meant to be.

It looks like people though that they will be able to still play PoE1 as was, within PoE2 ecosystem, somehow. That was never in the books.

It was advertised and then further explained that, yes 2 separate campaigns will lead to the same end game. At the same time it has been highlighted (yes Exilecon 2019) that basically every core game system will be reworked. In practice it meant that PoE1, at least on the systems level, would be no more.



I never advocated that we knew about "the split" in 2019.
What I advocate is that we knew that PoE2 will be very different game from PoE1.
We also knew that PoE2 will replace PoE1.


Why it is relevant?
Because it is not much different from what we are getting now, except that we get to keep PoE1 too.
People try paint "the split" as something dramatic, shattering, negative and opposite to what was "promise". While, in practice, what we are loosing is ability to play PoE1 campaign in PoE2, which probably most people wouldn't do anyway. The second thing that is lost (in context of PoE2), are old standard items and characters, which would be probably unusable anyway (in most cases) due to the conversion process.

And, we want to talk about surprises, if you look at might post from about 5-6 months ago, you will find that I strongly suspected that we will get 2 separate experiences. It just made sense, based on available information.

I just would like encourage others to have more rational approach instead of focusing on negative drama.

It would be also nice to have less misinformation spread among this community. The misinformation that has been spread here, on reddit and other platforms, by members of the very same community is part of the reason why we have group of misinformed people, who feel very disappointed now, like the OP.

This post was readable enough to reply to, I thought you were legit trolling before, I'll adjust my perception of your posts.

What do you consider misinformation though?

100% I believe the things im saying about the Unified endgame to be true and that they essentially lied to us.

Again, They told me that and then i told hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of people that re-assuring them for years that it would be unified and everything would be ok, Chris Wilson's got this, I had the faith.