Why is there no auction house in POE?

1 - There is a average end value. Its not a hard math problem.

2 - No one is suggesting you can no longer trade outside the AH. Not a single person, ever, in any of these threads, has suggested that.


That settles, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9


10 - There is a minimum value for things. No will sell tabulas for 1c. Dont be so afraid.



Look, this might be scary for you, but in every single game with an AH ever, you retain the ability to trade outside the AH. Never been a game with an AH, where there was no trading outside it. Please, go find one, I can name plenty where they worked side by side if you like. You could read about them. WoW, Rift, guild wars, Elder scrolls, eve, everquest, everquest 2, and on and on.

1. Just to be clear first day when ex is 20c you going to use average value from end of last 3 leagues aka about 200c and charge them 20c fee to post it? The lack of even remote understanding of the actual impact of your changes is staggering.

So you propose AH with fees along side of FREE current system. and you think it will be used. ./facepalm.

But just in case this is not clear to you. Lets say you have a 30c item, you can post it for 30c on AH and pay 3c (aka 30-3 27c profit) or you can post it on FREE website for 28c. and Guess which one will people are more likely to buy and which one gives more profit to you? And if you think people will pay more for convenience of AH think again, even in current system you can pay for convenience and pay a bit higher price and get nearly instant trades and yet.. tons of people will only whisper cheapest one.

Deathfairy, gonna go out on a limb here and guess you have never played one of the many games with a functioning AH. Fair?

I've played 5. Not a huge number considering the universe out there, but enough.

In each one, people use the AH and trade chat, and generally forum listings as well. Why? Because they dont want to leave delve to sell, because its faster, because its convenient.

You seem to not understand the current system costs a lot. It just doesnt cost currency, its costs time, annoyance, frustration, and Chris designed it to.

Im not sure what calamity you are imagining. But lets be clear, your own argument is that no one will use it. So there is no downside, it just wont be used?

Good, we've made progress. So all your other problems are solved, we just need to improve functionality so its more useful. Thats great.

Oh, you also apparently list most of your items for the wrong amount? Not really sure thats a compelling argument against a game mechanic. Thats probably the worst argument Ive heard, and a lot of them are pretty thin.

Repeating 3rd time for people who didn't read the thread.

What is the harm you say?

1) they clearly said there will never be ah. Going back on that massively hurts their image.
2) it takes butload of effort to create well done ah. That is bears massive costs.
3) it would result in lacking features/polish etc from next league or leagues.

I played Wow, and Starwars MMO i assume you count this as "well" functioning AH. i. In both of those games Ah serves supplemental role all best gear is BOP. You can 100% get away with never using AH in wow without much issues, the only thing you would need is second character for some professions and you can be self sufficient.

Honestly your refusal to address any glaring issues, or provide valid logical reasoning is getting sad. Like some magical well functioning AH games (and no wow is not valid example or even well functioning for that matter, but since it can be mostly ignored it doesn't matter.)

I am developer IRL, it is literally part of my job to consider the consequences of any sort of changes and how they would affect the existing and/or future use cases. I keep pointing out blant issues with common use cases now which get a lot worse and your main argument is "i don't think it will be a problem".

And just so we are clear you can and probably should improve trade, there are a lot of much easier and simpler changes that can be done to address MAJORITY of listed issues without creating abomination AH. But it does not occurs to you. Majority of the issues are due to
1) delayed API ( and tons of people still using poe.trade which can be hours behind).
2) Afk detection is too slow, items can and should be tagged afk faster.
3) Price fixing can have work arounds too for example it gets de-listed after x number of whispers from unique users. This does have some potential for abuse to remove legit listings for example so it is not clear cut.

All of these things take drastically less effort, do not break the main game principles and have very little chance to backfire (outside 3).

But who cares you want AH i got it.

"

trixxar wrote:

UNique, Your post is one contradiction after another. Perhaps you think length hides it, as if a wall of text makes it make sense.

… “contradictions” …

I well, I suppose I’m not surprised you’re laboring under the mistaken impression that I’ve made contradicting statements, you’re clearly quite bad at reading for content. Case in point: My user name is “Unquiteheart” Not “UNique”. But hey, feel free to point out anything you feel I’ve said that’s a “contradiction”. Fair warning, I will explain, in detail.

"

trixxar wrote:

Youve also admitted that you dont trade. So you are, from the start, talking from a point of ignorance. Based on your own description of your gameplay.

It’s certainly true that I’m ignorant of how you play the game. I’ve asked you for clarification regarding that several times now, and you’ve dodged the issue. But basically, this is just another attempt by you to rule my opinion as invalid based on your own criteria. Just because I’m ignorant of (the specific details of) your play-style doesn’t mean I’m ignorant of how Auction Houses function, or how they’d impact the game.

"

trixxar wrote:

You are also talking from self interest. You dont care if trade sucks, or is great, since, again, you dont trade. While its tempting to ignore you, I dislike letting illogical arguments stand without exposing them, so lets go.

No, that’s another of your Strawman arguments. You’re welcome to ask me what I think, but stop trying to put words in my mouth.

"

trixxar wrote:

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Unquietheart wrote:

However, most (all) of the proposals I've heard to date (yours included) are not nearly as intelligent, or inovative as the authors believe them to be.

Ok, but you dont explain WHY they are bad. This is just your random opinion. When you learn argumentation, law, debate, etc. one of the first things you learn is reason is king, opinions are worthless. State your opinion, but back it up. Reasons, logc.

I’ve explained (why your ideas are awful) every time you’ve actually given me any detail to work with. I’ve also asked you repeatedly to explain what you want. I’ve asked you for more detail over and over again, and you’ve dodged the issue, over and over again. You can’t just point to the horizon and say “there, there it is”. You have to actually do the ground work, you have to actually explain:

1: What you want.
2: Which group of players you think your idea will serve.
3: How every OTHER group of players will be impacted.
4: Where the money will come from for development.
5: Which people will be tasked to do the work.
6: How the implementation will be executed.
7: You also need to explain exactly what you’re doing inside the game system NOW, because it’s entirely possible you’re misusing the game system, and that all of the misery you’ve experienced is because you’re trying to use existing systems in an unintended fashion.

I’m arguing for the Status Quo. You’re the one who wants change. It is incumbent on you to explain what you want. Exactly what you want, in detail.

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Unquietheart wrote:

-
D: If drop rates are reduced because of an AH, then that AH rapidly becomes the primary vector for upgrades. This in turn eliminates one of the key "carrots" built into this style of gameplay. Or, as Blizzard phrased it: It undermines core gameplay.
E: You, personally, have already implicitly agreed that drop rates would indeed have to be reduced. (I'm happy to link that if you'd like to try to pretend that you didn't).

E - No actually I think that the game should just be adjusted to the minor increase in gear level available with an AH. It would likely be less than the adjustment from, say, incursion gear level increases. However, if Im wrong, and the power creep is greater, that still is within the realm of adjustment, as this last league has shown us.

What the heck are you talking about? First of all, you don’t GET to decide what goes on an AH. Second of all, I wasn’t guessing, I was telling you what actually happened in D3. What Blizzard said actually happened. What Chris Wilson said WOULD happen if PoE had an AH. That wasn’t my opinion, that was history.

"

trixxar wrote:

D - Already is for a ton of players. I suspect most but who knows. (dont pretend to know, we both know you dont have any data I dont)

I don’t NEED data. I have Chris Wilson’s official statement right here:

"

Chris wrote:

Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

You’re incorrect (about how many trade and even HOW they trade). You are objectively, unarguably incorrect. You, and everyone who plays the way you do, are a minority of the player base. That’s the official word by the one person who has the Authority to give it.

"

trixxar wrote:

This is and the next 5 paragraphs are completely meaningless to people who already use trade to gear. I can judge by myself, the players I know, the build guides who recommend how to search for items, streamers, the trade system itself for how many items are listed, and a few more variables.

In short, there is at least a very large portion of the playerbase who already use trade as the primary mechanism. Its just unpleasant, for no reason. Hence, all your talk of item drops being the key are meaningless to this playerbase.

You’re still wrong. Objectively wrong.

"

Chris wrote:

Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Unquietheart wrote:

No, I'm not ignoring that. I've said it's working as intended. You being unhappy with a given game system doesn't mean it isn't doing exactly what it's designed to. The existing system is designed to work well for small volumes of high value trades (where both parties are highly invested in the success of the individual trade); it's also designed to work poorly for high volumes of low value trades (where the seller has little investment in making an individual trade work). And yes, that does include consumables (such as maps and currency).

I see, so when you dont have an argument, you stop trying to reason entirely and say "Working as intended" as if how it is intended is some univeral empirical constant that cant be questioned.

“Working as intended” is exactly what’s going on there. You (and those like you) are trying to overuse the trade system and the feedback loop is providing painful friction letting you know you’re pushing too hard against it. That is the argument, why would it not be?

You want to question it? Go ahead. I’m not stopping you. But we’re going to go back to the fact that you STILL haven’t actually provided clarification regarding how you use the existing Atlas/Mapping system. It’s still quite likely that you’re just using the existing system incorrectly, and all your problems are your own fault.

"

trixxar wrote:

This, ultimately, is the greatest weakness in all your arguments. Everything I am saying has a simple logic.

Do tell.

"

trixxar wrote:

Trade is part of the game for a significant portion of players and for many their primary mechanism

No, wrong.

"

Chris wrote:

Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

"

trixxar wrote:

-> trade is intentionally frustrating and annoying

No, wrong.

The existing system is designed to work well for small volumes of high value trades (where both parties are highly invested in the success of the individual trade); it's also designed to work poorly for high volumes of low value trades (where the seller has little investment in making an individual trade work). The existing trade system IS NOT frustrating or annoying if used within the intended design parameters. The existing system uses frustration and annoyance to let players know they are over using the system.

"

trixxar wrote:

-> frustrating and annoying gameplay is generally bad and only should be used if nothing else is better

Enhh… okay, you’re not outright wrong on that one. Frustration is actually a key tool utilized in making games (as I explained in those 5 paragraphs you ignored), so no, it’s not “generally bad”. It’s a tool, designers use it where they feel they need to. In this case (as I’ve said, over and over again), the existing system is considered the lesser of two (or multiple) evils. Frustration and annoyance are the tools that the designers felt they had to resort to.

"

trixxar wrote:

-> there are multiple improvements possible from full AH to smaller improvements

Are there? Go ahead, Name some. Be specific. Explain how every segment of the player base will be impacted. Explain how much it’s going to cost. Explain where the labor hours are going to come from. Explain how you’re going to test the process.

"

trixxar wrote:

-> doing nothing for fear of D3 is harmful to the gameplay for at least a significant portion of the players.

No one is doing anything (or NOT doing anything) out of “fear”. Fear doesn’t enter into it. History does. The D3 AH is an actual business case study of what to avoid. Understand that case study, and actually address the issues that were prevalent (and write an actual business proposal) and you might have something. Might.

"

trixxar wrote:

There, thats it.

Yeah, I get it … “simple”. Two completely incorrect assumptions, one misunderstanding, one vague, unsubstantiated suggestion, and one unfounded opinion! You’re right, it is simple! Wrong, but simple. Thanks for clearing that up.

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Unquietheart wrote:

You've mentioned this before, and I've asked for clarification on how you (or those like you) play the game. How you utilize the existing systems is a relevant question you consistently attempt to ignore. If you are using the existing systems in exactly the manner that the developers intended and still running into issues, then that's worth noting.

Not ignoring, its just not interesting. If I have a weakness in gear, and nothing drops, I try to use trade. If I cant craft or have other means, Ill try first, but it also depends on your drops from betrayal if you need a certain mod. You can run master missions but sometimes trade is the only option depending on pure RNG. If I need a unique, it never drops, so trade is the only option for certain builds. On the rare times I craft, if I dont get enough, say, fusings, but I get more chaos or alts, I trade for what I need to craft. If I get a high value drop I dont need at all and friends dont need, I try to sell it.

If I need a map to fill out the atlas, and it doesnt drop after... I dont know, 20 maps, I trade for it.

It doesn’t matter if you think It’s “interesting” or not. You’re the one who wants to change things, and it’s still quite likely that you’re just using the game in the way that the developers didn’t intend, so it’s incumbent upon you to provide the details of what you do and do not do. (And that rambling paragraph is pretty weak to be honest).

You need a map to fill out the atlas. You make maybe 20 attempts, then get bored and try to buy it. So we’ve got one sample map that you’re missing, that you want. What about the rest of your map tab? Is it empty? Do you have maps to run? Do you have a net gain of maps? Or a net loss? I suspect you’ve got lots of other maps to run. Those are the ones the developers want you to use. You’re playing at the top of the game, the developers are running out of room to slow you down. So they have to try harder, and yes, that means they lean more heavily on the RNG. Is that ideal? No, of course not.

But that’s the other “player” in this equation that you’re not seeing (or choosing to ignore). GGG itself. As I told you, they’re a business. They’re trying to make money. How long any given player spends in the game system correlates quite closely to how much money they make. That means that as you run out of game, they try to slow you down. You certainly don’t have to like that they’re trying to slow you down, but they have a right to make money from their IP. They have a projected goal for total player dwell time in any given league.

So, got maps left? Go run those.

"

trixxar wrote:

Back to Morts point earlier, GG gear is actually the easiest to trade so if the point is slow downing actual endgame progression, we have already failed, so the system is pissing on us for no reason.

You and Mortyx are both still wrong: You, and those who play the way you do, are a minority of the player base. That’s an official stated base condition of this discussion. In mathematical terms, it’s a “given”. You don’t get to argue with that statement. Chris Wilson can change it if he chooses to, but until such time as he does, that’s the basic fact that you have to live with.

"

trixxar wrote:

You still didnt address an AH for consumables, you just were long winded about saying "working as intended" as if thats an answer.

Yeah, I did address it. You just didn’t like the answer. That’s fine, you certainly don’t have to like it if you don’t want to. But yes, it really is “Working as intended”. That really is the answer.

"

trixxar wrote:

You can't intentionally try to frustrate, annoy, and piss off players to the point they avoid trade, but make a game balanced around trade (Chris's words, not mine), and then be shocked when players are pissed off at you.

"

Unquietheart wrote:

They're not shocked. That's you, once again framing the situation as prejoratively as possible.

Another random opinion, no explanation why the situation is other than I described. Remember, reason, logic, thinking. Opinions are wasted.

Yeah? And? Clearly I need to reinstate the context again. You stated an opinion: You accused Chris Wilson (et al.) of being “shocked” at the response of the player base. Show me where they were “shocked”. Go on, use that “logic” of yours.

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Unquietheart wrote:

Suggest something I actually think is viable and won't screw the portions of the player base that aren't you and I'll consider it.

Lots of people beside me are frustrated with trade, my suggestions help them.

Lots MORE people aren’t frustrated with trade, your suggestions would hurt them. And no, that’s not my opinion. That’s what Chris Wilson told us: You are a minority, despite your opinion to the contrary.

"

trixxar wrote:

I think what you mean is you only care about SSF or people who almost dont trade, and no one else. So, you want me to give an option that helps you, but I care no more about your experience than you care about mine. Human nature.

I think what you mean is that you'd rather hold up another Strawman and claim that it said something I didn't because that's a lot easier for you to counter than what I actually did say.

"

trixxar wrote:

In reality, if you dont trade, an AH shouldnt impact you.

Never read the Trade Manifesto yourself I take it? Sure, it shouldn’t. But it would. Chris Wilson has said any PoE AH would indeed impact me. Bashiok said that the Blizzard/AH did impact me (so badly that they eventually had to remove the entire system because it was causing so much damage). So … yeah, you’re wrong. Again.

"

1: What you want.
2: Which group of players you think your idea will serve.
3: How every OTHER group of players will be impacted.
4: Where the money will come from for development.
5: Which people will be tasked to do the work.
6: How the implementation will be executed.
7: You also need to explain exactly what you’re doing inside the game system NOW, because it’s entirely possible you’re misusing the game system, and that all of the misery you’ve experienced is because you’re trying to use existing systems in an unintended fashion.

I’m arguing for the Status Quo. You’re the one who wants change. It is incumbent on you to explain what you want. Exactly what you want, in detail.

1- A trade that has actual mechanic restrictions instead of frustration restrictions;
2- All players that play trade league;
3- 0 impact upon any other group; (there is literal 0 necessity to change drop rates)
4,5,6- Plenty of suggestion have already been done here and reddit (more than hundreds in the past 7 years), if you own a bakery and there is a demand for a different type of bread, where the money will come from development of the bread? Which people will be tasked to make this new bread?
7- I want to craft a wand with +1 to minions, +1 to spells and minion damage/speed and Cast socket spells. To do this i need the base (easy to get) and then i can choose to alt spam regal it and/or beastcraft (so i need thousands of alts and hundreds of regals and beasts which requires hundreds of trades) OR i can fossill craft it (in which case i will require hundreds of fossils(bound and, santified and the level one) and ressonators that i will also have to trade because the ammount i get by myself is nowhere near the number required), and i still need to find/ buy veiled weapons to get the "cast socket spells". So i ask you, how i craft this wand without doing multiple trades?

"

I don’t NEED data. I have Chris Wilson’s official statement right here:

"

Chris wrote:

Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

Chris also stated PoE should be slow as diablo 2 was and a game that caters hardcore players, but look where we are now xD.

"

Chris wrote:

Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

I wonder why they don`t trade? Is it maybe because they don`t even know they can trade? Or might it be because there is no way to now trade even exists unless you search for it outside the game, and even then as a new player all you will see is the search parameters that you will probably don`t even understand. If there was a mini tutorial and a NPC that works exactly as https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Metamorph, do you think more or less people would trade?

"

“Working as intended” is exactly what’s going on there. You (and those like you) are trying to overuse the trade system and the feedback loop is providing painful friction letting you know you’re pushing too hard against it. That is the argument, why would it not be?

Dude, if we didn`t wanted to "overuse" the trade system we would be playing SSF, have you ever thought of that? I am all in if they want to make the game completely SSF or make trade EVEN SLOWER than it is now, as long it`s slowed equally for everyone(not requiring using third party apps to circumvent it`s flaws) and actually achieves the objective of slowing down progression, otherwise what`s the point?

For example would you agree with a system where you can trade everything quick, but gear is completely untradable? i would accept this, would you? Remember this would actually achieve the halting of gear progression that you defend so avidly.

"

You and Mortyx are both still wrong: You, and those who play the way you do, are a minority of the player base. That’s an official stated base condition of this discussion. In mathematical terms, it’s a “given”. You don’t get to argue with that statement. Chris Wilson can change it if he chooses to, but until such time as he does, that’s the basic fact that you have to live with.

Everyone is right unless proved of the contrary, when they were forced to introduce our shit AH (poe.trade) did the game imploded? Nope, it actually had a boon in number of players.
When they added a slight better AH in console, did the console game imploded? Nope.
So i wonder what would happen with an actual AH in PC, will it implode the game? Will it raise the playerbase? Who knows, i don`t nor does you. If they implement one and the game implodes then you can say you were right, before that all we can do is think about the potential consequences that might or not come true.

What is a fact is that more than me and trixxar have been complaining about the trading system for years, there are thousand of topics about it that date back 2013, if the system was "working as intended" there would not be so many complaints from many different people at all times in the game history. Chris blushs any time a streamer talks about how shit trade is, do you think he does that because he is proud or ashamed?

"

"

Chris wrote:
Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league.

I wonder why they don`t trade? Is it maybe because they don`t even know they can trade? Or might it be because there is no way to now trade even exists unless you search for it outside the game, and even then as a new player all you will see is the search parameters that you will probably don`t even understand. If there was a mini tutorial and a NPC that works exactly as...

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I suspect far more people WOULD trade if there was an easy safe way for them to do so without having to spam forums, chats, interact with other players directly, or use third party websites.

It's no secret that many people who Play POE come from other ARPG's or similar games; given POE's complexities it's pretty fair to assume this isn't their first rodeo. So, let's think about the average trade experience from the games they come from that don't have an AH mechanism. It's crappy forum trade, chat spam, and dealing with scammers. It's Diablo 2 all over again. No thanks. My ONLY major complain from Diablo 2 was the horrid trade experience. It's the number one reason I don't trade in POE currently.

My past experiences (and I suspect many others as well) tell me that in the current environment it's going to be a huge headache that's not worth my time, unless I put forth major effort.

I personally would LOVE to trade my goods with others If I knew I wasn't going to have to spend a considerable amount of my play time trying to do it, with the added possibility of getting scammed or worse.

Quite frankly, "ain't nobody got time fo that shit!"

This is going in circles....
It is intentional that trade is clunky. easy trade is NOT good for multitude of reasons explained in detail. So your Epiphany that if trade would easier more people would trade is not exactly new, groundbreaking or not communicated by GGG directly.

Every time I see an auction house thread I have to double check if I didn’t mistakenly drop into the D3 forums.....

"

Unquietheart wrote:

Just because I’m ignorant of (the specific details of) your play-style doesn’t mean I’m ignorant of how Auction Houses function, or how they’d impact the game.

It less that youre ignorant of any auction house than you are of what its like to trade in the game you are currently talking about. You also dont trade, so talking with you about trade improvements .. itd be like me commenting on crafting. I dont craft, I dont care about it, my only goal in talking about it would be a non-negative impact on my game, not improving the situation for crafters.

If I laid out the most perfect AH or trade setup, it still wouldnt help you, because you dont trade. And although I dont buy the zero sum argument, in theory it would take dev resources from building content you want.

So, sure, you're opposed to any changes in the same way someone who only plays summoners doesnt want dev time or resources put into bows, or melee, or whatever. Thats fine, but its not particularly useful to talk through.

It can be summed with a simple statement that you dont trade, dont care if trade is improved, dont want resources to go to things you dont really do. Therefore, there's no benefit to you. Or, if you want to claim straw man, describe your position. So far from this thread its exactly what I lay out above. Your position is unless something is proven 100% to be perfect with no negatives, status quo is preferrable.

Id argue theres no real downside either as I dont buy Chris's argument and havent seen other games work that way, but that actually doesnt matter to you, since GGGs dev time would go to it (you even pull out the resource argument above) so even with a perfect system, you are still net negative.



As for people like me being a minority, you can twist any statistic. Free to play models attract a lot of people who try it for half an hour, then quit. Not knocking PoE, thats just how F2P works. The is supported when the devs at exilecon said a large number of people who quit hadnt even figured out basic sockets or supports. Saying they also dont trade isn't really a useful metric. If GGG can tell us that only 5% of people who... say, beat the campaign trade, then I'd resign my arguments and say we are too small a minority to worry about, financially. Fine, have a horrible trade setup, almost no one is doing it anyway.

Lastly, using "this is how it was designed, so its working", is a a completely illogical argument. Yes, trade is probably working as Chris wants it to. Possible, but unpleasant, discouraging and frustrating to use. I would agree, that fits his vision from the manifesto. You use that as a logical argument that it is good, but thats not a logical conclusion. Designers are not infallible, their vision for individual aspects of games is just as biased and flawed as anyone. They also thought everyone would use 4L for main skills. Thank god Diablo didnt use sockets or we'd have a broken system for that, which we'd refuse to change for the same fear of turning out like Diablo III, and you'd be defending as working as intended and the lesser evil.

PoEs time will come and go and the next gen games will have better features, gameplay, and accessibility. Do you really think they will make you alt tab, send 20 messages, awkwardly trade in person? I dont think so. Maybe no trade, maybe balance around SSF, maybe easy trade. But they wont use this, so we are we settling for it.

The only you and I have truly agreed on I think is that the current system sucks. So maybe Im wrong about the solution, but throwing up your hands with the 'lesser evil' excuse is really weak. if something is broken, try different things, be imaginative, you dont have to change everything but try something. Dont give up and settle for mediocrity.