-20% exp on death needed

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Piousqd#0073 wrote:

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Snooke#4557 wrote:

My worry is that it would not be well received if it was added core and retention would go down even more.

This statement is dramatically overused, in my opinion.

Things that have a direct, sizeable, impact on retention are:

1. Scalable end-game reward. (as proven by affliction)

2. Bad league mechanics (as proven by things such as necro)

3. Outside influence (i.e, release of competing games/leagues)

... and I would say that's about it.

The majority of players will play the amount of time they are going to play, regardless of content. There will always be players who play for a week, for 2 weeks, for a month, whatever, and then just quit.


Arguing against/for any specific change for the sake of player retention is a blatant attempt to manipulate the developers into compliance. One that they surely have seen a million times, and are likely to discard as noise.

Nor you, I or GGG would know the effect of such a change as this mechanic has never been touched afaik but I sincerely hope both our opinions, including concerns, are taken into considiration.

I still don't understand why this could not be limited to Ruthless, then no one is forcing eachothers way of playing the game on anyone.

Obviously we are not gonna be able to agree on this so I will just leave it at my -1.

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Snooke#4557 wrote:

I still don't understand why this could not be limited to Ruthless, then no one is forcing eachothers way of playing the game on anyone.
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Because this isn't about OP wanting to challenge themselves, so much as someone screaming into the void as they watch GGG pander to casuals and bad players, effectively sucking the lifeblood from a once great game.

I do not think that a 20% exp penalty on death is going to matter much. It doesn't actually create an urgency to invest more into defense.

Level 95-100 you are constantly holding an omen to reduce the death penalty anyways. Having it go from 2.5% to 5% on death with the omen is going from 5 maps to 10 maps at level 99. Going from 10 minutes to 20 minutes. It won't really encourage any changes.

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tru2dgame#7774 wrote:

I do not think that a 20% exp penalty on death is going to matter much. It doesn't actually create an urgency to invest more into defense.

Level 95-100 you are constantly holding an omen to reduce the death penalty anyways. Having it go from 2.5% to 5% on death with the omen is going from 5 maps to 10 maps at level 99. Going from 10 minutes to 20 minutes. It won't really encourage any changes.

You mean Omen of Amelioration? Which is worth 1.4 div at this current moment in SC Keepers? Hardly something you'll be able to afford for a build that dies 3 times per map. That item will only become more expensive if death penalty goes higher, so calling the penalty arbitrary because that one item exists is nonsense.

You will still lose 5% per death with new penalty and while holding the Omen (which can only be used once per area by the way), which is more than you receive past a certain level threshold.

XP penalty has always mattered

If you are dying 3 times per map, then you shouldn't be at that tier/difficulty of map. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

If spending 1.4d on an omen breaks your budget, then you have much bigger issues with your overall strategy. You shouldn't expect to have to buy that omen more than a few times between 98-100 if you are running content that your build can actually handle with predictability.

Each level from 98-100 takes almost as much XP as 1-98. In addition to the higher exp required, your level is moving farther beyond the level of the area. This means each kill gives you less raw exp. It is a big time investment where you go from leveling multiple times per day to taking multiple days to level. Therefore, my time is worth more than the 1.4d that I spend to avert a penalty for a death. If I die and lose an omen, I should be thinking of whether it is worth it to re-enter or just reroll.

This is the same argument that makes people spend multiple divs for a 5-way carry or join up with a group. Their time is worth more than spending the divines.

Where I think players get confused is when they devalue their time. After all, the death penalty once you are level 100 is 0. So getting to 100 and then running ultra hard content will earn you more than the money you spent to get to 100.

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Piousqd#0073 wrote:

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Snooke#4557 wrote:

I still don't understand why this could not be limited to Ruthless, then no one is forcing eachothers way of playing the game on anyone.
.

Because this isn't about OP wanting to challenge themselves, so much as someone screaming into the void as they watch GGG pander to casuals and bad players, effectively sucking the lifeblood from a once great game.

I still don't understand why it has to be enforced on everyone. Wasn't this the exact reason Ruthless was created? Because a part of the community felt the game was deviating from its core values?

I can agree with OP that there should be a bigger emphasis on defences but I don't see how a mechanic to devaluate time makes any sense of fixing that since it is easily circumvented through other game mechanics.

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Snooke#4557 wrote:

I still don't understand why it has to be enforced on everyone. Wasn't this the exact reason Ruthless was created? Because a part of the community felt the game was deviating from its core values?

I can agree with OP that there should be a bigger emphasis on defenses but I don't see how a mechanic to devaluate time makes any sense of fixing that since it is easily circumvented through other game mechanics.

It is just one portion of the community's opinion, you don't have to agree.

Ruthless is an entirely different experience, one where you are forced to use currency and materials sparingly and make do.

That is very different than just being of the opinion that lvl 100 should not be a given. OP is simply arguing that being lvl 100 should be reserved for those willing to put in the grind.

You can still play a glass cannon, you can still choose to ignore defenses/mechanics/over juice, etc, but you will be stuck at lvl ~95.

Leveling to end-game should be a conscious choice, a farm you choose to engage in, not the by-product of the juicing farm you are making your money with.

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Snooke#4557 wrote:

I still don't understand why it has to be enforced on everyone. Wasn't this the exact reason Ruthless was created? Because a part of the community felt the game was deviating from its core values?

It's about making the WHOLE game better for everyone. The scaling down of the game is antithetical to what actually made PoE unique and popular to begin with (with the diehard crowd).

You are trying to see it as a form of punishment inflicted on people...but that's not what the point is. Much like some folks saying "please make more loot drop", which would also be a ubiquitous change, "increase the death penalty" is the SAME type of request. For exactly the same reasoning.

Ruthless isn't a part of this: ruthless is incomparable to the base game. The fact that you brought it up shows that you aren't yet understanding the "point" or purpose of this thread. That being said, there may be some (but likely very few) that WOULD argue that ruthless principles and design SHOULD be brought on everyone for the betterment of the whole game. I'm not saying that, nor is a 20% exp penalty anywhere remotely near the idea behind what makes ruthless the mode it is.

Ruthless is about scarcity, weakness, and longevity. The exp penalty is about creating a stronger desire among the overall playerbase to utilize defenses and promote introspection on their builds. Some will still totally ignore it, but they are outliers.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

You are trying to see it as a form of punishment inflicted on people...but that's not what the point is. Much like some folks saying "please make more loot drop", which would also be a ubiquitous change, "increase the death penalty" is the SAME type of request. For exactly the same reasoning.

It is a form of punishment by the game, because all the hours you put in getting the exp are deleted for no reason. All that would happen if the game got more punishing is people would have less fun. That's it. Games shouldn't be this pointlessly punishing, PoE is the only game I know that disrespects your time investment so much by just deleting your earned exp. That's a ridiculous mechanic.

Exp penalty doesn't teach anyone anything, it only makes me wanna alt+f4. The game shouldn't be trying to force people to play in a certain way or a certain tanky build. Its a game, I should be able to play however I want.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

it only makes me wanna alt+f4. The game shouldn't be trying to force people to play in a certain way or a certain tanky build. Its a game, I should be able to play however I want.

Not pointless then. If even a fraction of the player base that falls into the Tofortu school of thought permenantly alt+f4's POE, its a win.