Why do we need to use a shield can't we just use ornament of the east for the accurracy and a epdps claw?
Because half your attacks will swing with ornament of the east, which has junk damage.
If you really wanted to dual wield, you'd need 2x elemental claws with similar stats, but the only thing you gain from doing that is 10% more attack speed (I guess twin terrors if you route down there). That's nice, but it doesn't compare to the damage you get from lycosidae.
The way evasion works in this game is it rolls once to evade the hit, and then again to evade the crit. So lycosidae is a HUGE boost to our effective crit chance.
According to PoB I gain 46% more damage from lycosidae than dual weilding identical copies of my mainhand claw. If I add twin terros (without even dropping anything to pay for it) lycosidae is still 29% more damage.
Now of course I have no accuracy on gear (why would I?), and so, only have 76% chance to hit. With accuracy on gear the difference would narrow (assuming you got that accuracy without giving anything else up). But lycosidae is a ridiculously good damage item.
If I force my chance to hit up in PoB (by lowering enemy level) to 90%, lycosidae still wins - and that's without paying for the accuracy with any gear compromises, and without paying for twin terrors by giving up a jewel socket.
dont worry about the claw when u had enough +250edps , aps , crit .i've done shaper/gurdian/elder with this..btw i found this claw lucky me.. its good and better than my previous 300edps claw ,so i sold my previous one and upgrade some of my jewel. im sitting at 5.9k hp and 150k molten strike dps, its enought to kill shaper deathless :>
Do you know why the build use Herald of Thunder and Herald of Ice instead of just using Wrath? I am increasing my DPS by 5-7% on POB with Wrath so I would like to know if there is a reason to keep the 2 heralds.
With Wrath I'm winning one slot for a new gem, hesitating between Vaal Haste and Empower if you have some suggestion too about that
Herald of Ice is used for clearing purpose, giving the ability to gain Onslaught and Innervate thanks to the aoe shatter kills. Herald of Thunder has been deemed borderline useless by many commentators throughout the 100+ previous pages, even by the OP.
You can perfectly choose to discard HoT, as it is not providing that much of a dps boost, if you have mana reservation problems/need the slot for something else.
You can also choose to discard HoI if you want, in favour of Wrath or something else like Arctic Armor (if you want increased defense and your gear level is good enough to not run a dps aura at all).
However, by discarding HoI your map clear speed will probably suffer.
Personnally, I chose to discard both heralds. Instead, I run Wrath-Enfeeble-Blasphemy-Enlighten (boots).
Did my clearspeed suffer? Not at all, because I made the following few changes to the original build setup:
- bought abyss jewels with x% chance to gain Onslaught on kill (rolled +max life, 2x flat ele damage and x% chance for onslaught). I got 2 of them, for a total of 13% chance to get onslaught on kill, and the uptime is satisfying. I will try with only one in the future (7 or 8% chance);
- moved the shield charge setup to the helm, got rid of Faster Attacks in favor of Blood Rage (Shield Charge-Fortify-Blood Magic-Blood Rage)
- bought a pair of Thunderfists and I use Frost Blades-Multistrike-Ancestral Call-Elemental Damage with Attacks. If you add the lvl 18 Added Lightning Damage and the flat lightning damage from the gloves it provides you with an effective 5L Frost Blades for clearing purpose. I was lucky enough to snatch a +1 level to socketed Gems corrupted pair with the color I wanted for cheap.
For clearing:
- I equip the Thunderfists and use Frost Blades. Molten Strike stays on my 6L chest, with the single target 3R3B setup in case I need it on a tough monster. ==> I have at my disposal 5L Frost Blades (right click), 6L Molten Strike (on another mouse button), Wrath, Enfeeble, Onslaught on kill (13% chance atm), Shield Charge, Blood Rage, OoS, Ancestral Protector, and the CWDT-IC-Lightning Golem setup.
For bosses:
- I usually dont bother changing anything for low red tier maps, and use Molten Strike as is.
- For high red tier maps and endgame bosses I just switch the Thunderfists with my pair of 2 abyss sockets Tombfists, on which I put a CWDT-Vortex setup in order to lay some aoe chilling effect down while I'm on top of the boss. I'm also considering changing Vortex for Tempest Shield, for the additional block chances instead. Didnt really thought of a better 2L CWDT setup apart from those 2, and I don't want an active skill setup like vaal haste/grace/lightning trap to keep the skillbar switching to a minimum. But one could perfectly go the Increased Duration - Vaal skill way on this slot. ==> I have at my disposal 6L Molten Strike, Wrath, Enfeeble, Shield Charge, Blood Rage, OoS, Ancestral Protector, the CWDT-IC-Lightning Golem setup and a 2L CWDT-Vortex setup that could be replaced by any 2L setup of one's choosing.
All in all, I find the clearspeed way more enjoyable and faster with this setup while the single target damage is basically the same as the original build.
The only difference is that I switch my pair of gloves and 1 skill on the skillbar (replacing Frost Blades with Molten Strike on my right click button for QoL) for high tier bosses, instead of switching 1 or 2 gems on the 6L setup.
You should be aware that by going this route you obviously lose some max life while clearing, since Thunderfists don't have any, compared to the +% max life and the flat life from abyss jewels of Tombfists, or the flat life and resists on a pair of Gripped Gloves. In my case, I loose about 350 health but I'm still just under 6k life which I find to be sufficient while clearing.
On a final note, I should add:
- that Frost Blades could be replaced with another skill, Lightning Strikes for example. I did not test it but I don't see why it wouldnt work;
- that this setup is also pefectly doable with a shaped/elder pair of rare gloves with "Socketed Gems are supported by Faster Attacks" and "Socketed Gems are supported by Faster Projectiles" or "Socketed Gems are supported by Slower Projectiles", but gloves like this with both mods lvl 18+ and just some life are expensive. While it would provide us with an effective 6L for Frost Blades, I'm not sure that it would be really better than going with Thunderfists, or at least I think it would require a hefty investment to do so. The gems setup would look like Frost Blades-Ancestral-Call-Elemental Damage with Attack-Added Lightning Damage (+Faster Attacks and Faster/Slower Projectiles).
Please also note that I made these changes once I already had some overall decent gear. I wouldnt recommend doing this without at least an okayish level of gear overall, or Frost Blades could prove to be lackluster in term of clearing power in higher tier maps.
thanks for the testing.
Fun fact? for frostblades builds it's the other way around with molten strike to kill bosses ahaha.
Just notice following your message that in fact faster attacks seems utterly useless on shield charge? oO
Why are we using it? As it seems we can still spam it without any side effect
Where do you put your intel?
It seems nobody plays orb of storm with curse on hit (since we use enfeeble with blasphemy), so i assume you cast it yourself every 5 seconds?
There is no mechanics in the build to proc frenzy charges during boss encounters?
Only procs with bloodrage right?
Looking for ideas on how to get those
Last edited by tirrorex on Jan 9, 2018, 5:03:59 AM
Do you know why the build use Herald of Thunder and Herald of Ice instead of just using Wrath? I am increasing my DPS by 5-7% on POB with Wrath so I would like to know if there is a reason to keep the 2 heralds.
With Wrath I'm winning one slot for a new gem, hesitating between Vaal Haste and Empower if you have some suggestion too about that
Herald of Ice is used for clearing purpose, giving the ability to gain Onslaught and Innervate thanks to the aoe shatter kills. Herald of Thunder has been deemed borderline useless by many commentators throughout the 100+ previous pages, even by the OP.
You can perfectly choose to discard HoT, as it is not providing that much of a dps boost, if you have mana reservation problems/need the slot for something else.
You can also choose to discard HoI if you want, in favour of Wrath or something else like Arctic Armor (if you want increased defense and your gear level is good enough to not run a dps aura at all).
However, by discarding HoI your map clear speed will probably suffer.
Personnally, I chose to discard both heralds. Instead, I run Wrath-Enfeeble-Blasphemy-Enlighten (boots).
Did my clearspeed suffer? Not at all, because I made the following few changes to the original build setup:
- bought abyss jewels with x% chance to gain Onslaught on kill (rolled +max life, 2x flat ele damage and x% chance for onslaught). I got 2 of them, for a total of 13% chance to get onslaught on kill, and the uptime is satisfying. I will try with only one in the future (7 or 8% chance);
- moved the shield charge setup to the helm, got rid of Faster Attacks in favor of Blood Rage (Shield Charge-Fortify-Blood Magic-Blood Rage)
- bought a pair of Thunderfists and I use Frost Blades-Multistrike-Ancestral Call-Elemental Damage with Attacks. If you add the lvl 18 Added Lightning Damage and the flat lightning damage from the gloves it provides you with an effective 5L Frost Blades for clearing purpose. I was lucky enough to snatch a +1 level to socketed Gems corrupted pair with the color I wanted for cheap.
For clearing:
- I equip the Thunderfists and use Frost Blades. Molten Strike stays on my 6L chest, with the single target 3R3B setup in case I need it on a tough monster. ==> I have at my disposal 5L Frost Blades (right click), 6L Molten Strike (on another mouse button), Wrath, Enfeeble, Onslaught on kill (13% chance atm), Shield Charge, Blood Rage, OoS, Ancestral Protector, and the CWDT-IC-Lightning Golem setup.
For bosses:
- I usually dont bother changing anything for low red tier maps, and use Molten Strike as is.
- For high red tier maps and endgame bosses I just switch the Thunderfists with my pair of 2 abyss sockets Tombfists, on which I put a CWDT-Vortex setup in order to lay some aoe chilling effect down while I'm on top of the boss. I'm also considering changing Vortex for Tempest Shield, for the additional block chances instead. Didnt really thought of a better 2L CWDT setup apart from those 2, and I don't want an active skill setup like vaal haste/grace/lightning trap to keep the skillbar switching to a minimum. But one could perfectly go the Increased Duration - Vaal skill way on this slot. ==> I have at my disposal 6L Molten Strike, Wrath, Enfeeble, Shield Charge, Blood Rage, OoS, Ancestral Protector, the CWDT-IC-Lightning Golem setup and a 2L CWDT-Vortex setup that could be replaced by any 2L setup of one's choosing.
All in all, I find the clearspeed way more enjoyable and faster with this setup while the single target damage is basically the same as the original build.
The only difference is that I switch my pair of gloves and 1 skill on the skillbar (replacing Frost Blades with Molten Strike on my right click button for QoL) for high tier bosses, instead of switching 1 or 2 gems on the 6L setup.
You should be aware that by going this route you obviously lose some max life while clearing, since Thunderfists don't have any, compared to the +% max life and the flat life from abyss jewels of Tombfists, or the flat life and resists on a pair of Gripped Gloves. In my case, I loose about 350 health but I'm still just under 6k life which I find to be sufficient while clearing.
On a final note, I should add:
- that Frost Blades could be replaced with another skill, Lightning Strikes for example. I did not test it but I don't see why it wouldnt work;
- that this setup is also pefectly doable with a shaped/elder pair of rare gloves with "Socketed Gems are supported by Faster Attacks" and "Socketed Gems are supported by Faster Projectiles" or "Socketed Gems are supported by Slower Projectiles", but gloves like this with both mods lvl 18+ and just some life are expensive. While it would provide us with an effective 6L for Frost Blades, I'm not sure that it would be really better than going with Thunderfists, or at least I think it would require a hefty investment to do so. The gems setup would look like Frost Blades-Ancestral-Call-Elemental Damage with Attack-Added Lightning Damage (+Faster Attacks and Faster/Slower Projectiles).
Please also note that I made these changes once I already had some overall decent gear. I wouldnt recommend doing this without at least an okayish level of gear overall, or Frost Blades could prove to be lackluster in term of clearing power in higher tier maps.
hey, i am running something pretty similar, i do use thunderfists with +1 lvl corruption and lightning strike/MS/pierce/WED
i also tested frostblades and i liked it aswell, the shorter range from FB made me go back to LS though, the downside beeing the inability to shoot over edges/highground/lowground and the occasional fps drops.
i did no replace herald of ice but herald of thunder. herald of ice is just too nice to pass for some flat ele damage, the innervate/onslaught buff is totally worth it aswell.
LS is so much superior (than MS) for map clearing imho, it also offers a true ranged attack if you don't feel like tanking a though mob.
i switch to tombsfists and +3 molten proj helm for pure ST like shaper/guardians. the dps is absolutely nuts then, i can kill the shaper in last phase in literally 1-2 seconds when he casts beam first.
i tested the double mod shaped gloves with attack speed / projectile speed and even crit multi and it turns out that thunderfists are quite a lot better overall. tried every possible combination, but the added lightning and the 1-100 flat and ias is just too strong. overall i can live with sacrifying some life on them.
So has anyone that's actually in Abyss that has killed Shaper come close to this guys DPS? I've got about 50ex to work with and I've seen alot of builds coming from Standard that don't really work well in Abyss. Gem swapping doesn't really bother me, but to do what this guy is doing in the videos I assume you're going to need 5.5ex for dying sun, 6L chest we'll say Belly is prob around 8ex, Lycosidae is a little over 3ex, Jewelry is going to still be expensive without accuracy rolls, Helm enchant on Rat's Nest is 13ex. So we're at 29.5ex. Lets not even mention the claw. We didn't even add in the jewelry. Yeah you might be able to get the Jewelry for about 1ex a piece if you're going with sub-par rolls. So over 30ex without mentioning the claw since there's alot of you guys saying you don't need a great one. I'd love to try this build out, but more than half of these people playing the build see "budget friendly" and don't understand why their dps sucks, failing to realize that this guy has over 50ex investment in the build that he showcases in the vids. Is it worth it? Lets get a video of someone killing shaper that fast in Abyss league. I'm ready to roll the build and once I see that Abyss shaper kill I'll go ahead and roll it lol. Chop Chop
Also forgot Vinktar. Good rolls around 1.5-2ex I suppose
So has anyone that's actually in Abyss that has killed Shaper come close to this guys DPS? I've got about 50ex to work with and I've seen alot of builds coming from Standard that don't really work well in Abyss.
I don't have gear that rivals the OP's but I have done shaper and all guardians deathless with this build, with about 8 ex worth of gear. No hat enchant, no 6L belly (rare 6L), no dying sun. I can still transition shaper in the span of one set of flasks if I get full DPS time (like while he's channeling beam or whatever).
Have you tried essence of horror gloves instead of thunderfist? Should be better damage at higher gear levels, and isn't as expensive as a GG elder/shaper glove.
I did not test that, and I don't plan too, as I am satisfied with the Thunderfist setup.
I honestly don't really see the benefit of an essence of horror pair of gloves, we don't really need the increased critical strike chance. I already am at 44% crit chance with Frost Blades (53% with Power charges), and with the Diamond Flask the effective crit chance is around 69% already (78% with Power charges). +3,5% base crit chance would be overkill, unless you plan on ditching the Diamond Flask (which I wouldn't do)
And for this you would only have a 4L to support your secondary "clearing" skill, whereas Thunderfists provides you with a 5L and rare elder/shaped gripped gloves a 6L.
I might just need to make room for flame dash so I can cross the damn abysses.
I personnally use Lightning Warp-Reduced Duration on a scepter with "Gems are supported with Faster Casting" in one of my secondary weapons set slot (I use 2 rare scepters, providing a lot of Increased cast speed, one of them with this affix, that I bought for a couple alch each). I just press X (shortcut for swapping sets), then Z (azerty keyboard, shortcut for Lightning Warp when the secondary set is equiped), then X again to swap back to primary set whenever I need to go over an obstacle. It's fast and I still have 4 slots in secondary set to level gems this way.
Last edited by Gregoriensten on Jan 9, 2018, 7:20:18 AM
Just notice following your message that in fact faster attacks seems utterly useless on shield charge? oO
Why are we using it? As it seems we can still spam it without any side effect
With Faster Attacks, Shield Charge will be a bit faster of course.
But since we have high attack speed claw and running Blood Rage most of the time while clearing, we have quite a fast overall attack speed anyway. Shield Charge is fast even without Faster Attacks.
Fast enough for me ;)
There are several options: rings/amulet, boots, gloves, jewels, or +30 Int nodes on the skilltree if you really are desperate.
Basically, try to snag in some Int wherever you can while maximising Life, resists and dps mods.
For example, I have a pair of rare boots with 30% movement, good life, 2x okay resists and +52 Intelligence. That is all I need and I can focus on the rest on other pieces of gear.
It seems nobody plays orb of storm with curse on hit (since we use enfeeble with blasphemy), so i assume you cast it yourself every 5 seconds?
In this build OoS is used to trigger Instrument of Virtue and generating Power Charges. So yeah, I cast it right before I start dpsing a boss or hitting a pack of mobs, and refresh it when needed to keep on having Instrument of Virtue rolling.
There is no mechanics in the build to proc frenzy charges during boss encounters?
Only procs with bloodrage right?
Looking for ideas on how to get those
You are right, Frenzy charges are generated via Blood Rage when clearing. We don't have them for bosses that don't have adds around them. It's not really needed though, as the dps on boss without Frenzy Charges is already very good.
If you absolutely want Frenzy charges on bosses, the only reliable way to get them would be to make room for a Frenzy setup. It could be done in my setup by replacing the CWDT-Vortex by Frenzy-Multistrike in my 2 abyss sockets Tombfists for example.
It should be noted that some people that commented in this thread chose to discard Blood Rage entirely (so no degen). Frenzy charges are expendables if you have sufficient dps otherwise and don't like Blood Rage.
Last edited by Gregoriensten on Jan 9, 2018, 7:22:26 AM
Just notice following your message that in fact faster attacks seems utterly useless on shield charge? oO
Why are we using it? As it seems we can still spam it without any side effect
With Faster Attacks, Shield Charge will be a bit faster of course.
But since we have high attack speed claw and running Blood Rage most of the time while clearing, we have quite a fast overall attack speed anyway. Shield Charge is fast even without Faster Attacks.
Fast enough for me ;)
There are severall options: rings/amulet, boots, gloves, jewels, or +30 Int nodes on the skilltree if you really are desperate.
Basically, try to snag in some Int wherever you can while maximising Life, resists and dps mods.
For example, I have a pair of rare boots with 30% movement, good life, 2x okay resists and +52 Intelligence. That is all I need and I can focus on the rest on other pieces of gear.
It seems nobody plays orb of storm with curse on hit (since we use enfeeble with blasphemy), so i assume you cast it yourself every 5 seconds?
In this build OoS is used to trigger Instrument of Virtue and generating Power Charges. So yeah, I cast it right before I start dpsing a boss or hitting a pack of mobs, and refresh it when needed to keep on having Instrument of Virtue rolling.
There is no mechanics in the build to proc frenzy charges during boss encounters?
Only procs with bloodrage right?
Looking for ideas on how to get those
You are right, frenzy charges are generated via Blood Rage when clearing. We don't have them for bosses that don't have adds around them. It's not really needed though, as the dps on boss without Frenzy Charges is already very good.
If you absolutely want Frenzy charges on bosses, the only reliable way to get them would be to make room for a Frenzy setup. It could be done in my setup by replacing the CWDT-Vortex by Frenzy-Multistrike in my 2 abyss sockets Tombfists for example.
Since i linked my ancestral protector with blind and culling strike (which seems useless with good dps) could i replace culling strike with frenzy?
I assume the frenzy charges will be for me and not the ancestral protector?
Problem for the intel seems to be my low level, i just poped a point in my passive tree while i wait for a few more levels, i will see how it goes then :)
Since i linked my ancestral protector with blind and culling strike (which seems useless with good dps) could i replace culling strike with frenzy?
I assume the frenzy charges will be for me and not the ancestral protector?
Frenzy is an attack skill gem, so it means you will need to attack with it 3 times in order to gain 3 Frenzy charges, then proceed to dps with your Molten Strike. If you add Multistrike, it means you will need to "attack" only once to gain the 3 charges. Otherwise you will need to hit the shortcut 3 times to make those 3 attacks.
And of course your Ancestral Protector will not benefit from it, since it is a separate skill gem.
On a sidenote, when you have reached a good overall gear, you can toss in an abyss jewel with %chance to Blind on hits (3% to 6%). I use one myself. It adds a defensive layer to the setup considering all the Molten Strikes projectiles and the fast attack speed.
Problem for the intel seems to be my low level, i just poped a point in my passive tree while i wait for a few more levels, i will see how it goes then :)
Honestly, while leveling, grab Intel on the tree as needed and don't bother with it more than that. Once you're finished leveling you can start looking for Int on 1 or 2 items and then refund those passives to polish your skilltree.
