Snapshotting

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SeriousBeatdown wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Disrupted wrote:

Question: Switching to a weapon set that grants me a curse skill (be it corrupted or on a unique on hit) and I apply it to the monster, does it still apply after I switch back to my regular weapons? I hope so, that was one of the reasons I liked the secondary weapon set in D2 (charges and whatnot) and IMO one of the uses for secondary weapon slot that should stay.

Yes, currently. Curses being a debuff placed on a monster rather than a buff/aura on you are not connected to you after casting.
Particularly abusive cases of curse use are being fixed via other means.
If those prove ineffective, it might be possible in future to extend this system to constant maintaining and updating of curses, but that would require an extra solution for "curse on hit" unique items, which can curse things without you ever having a curse skill.

No Way man! That's cheating! SNAPSHOTTER!!!!

Hey I weapon switch to a bow with frenzy... then switch back to my other weapon's tab...
Do I get to keep those Frenzy Charges? SNAPSHOTTER!!!! That's cheating.. Abusive game mechanics...

How can you not see that's the same things as... hey I weapon switch and cast RF then weapon switch back... If you're gonna selectively screw RF users with that double standard just get rid of the second weapon slot altogether...

anytime you fully equip every item and every gem and hit nothing except your weapon switch hot key... THAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED!

To just single one particular skill and say, NO! RF BAD! and allow every other instance in the game to continue to benefit from pressing your weapon switch hotkey to use a skill is a ridiculously unfair double standard.

When you swap out from your bow, and move to a melee wep after gaining those frenzy charges, you're not still gaining the crit chance/damage/other stats on the bow... That's the difference.

Mark, would still like some clarification if Remote Mine + Trap combo no longer works for direct damage spells. I understand that their not allowed to double dip from passives anymore, but do you also lose the support damage from Remote Mines more multiplier?

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Moose65 wrote:

Mark, would still like some clarification if Remote Mine + Trap combo no longer works for direct damage spells. I understand that their not allowed to double dip from passives anymore, but do you also lose the support damage from Remote Mines more multiplier?

No, the ones that won't gain the benefit of mine/trap are the ones that create new objects.

So:

1) Trap+Mine no longer stack.

2) Trap and Mine no longer increase the damage of Totems (totem is a new object and uses it's own skills)

3) Trap and Mine no longer increase damage of any Minions.

EDIT:4) Skills that are traps or mines already (Fire Trap/Freeze Mine) don't benefit from trap/mine support gems.

So if trap and mine DMG no longer apply simultaneously why are they grouped together on the skills tree. Its almost like this exploit was meant to be exploited. You can't tell me there was a lack of foresight to see this.This should have been addressed before these passives came into existence.

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winniethewhor wrote:

EDIT: I've also had a hard time understand these different spectre changes too. Can I only spectre one type of monster now per gem? I understand I can't change the links around, but can I summmon X different spectres still?

From my understanding of it, you can raise any kind of spectres you want, but you only have a certain amount of supports to work with. So, if you raise a 4L Tentacle Miscreation with Physical Projectile Attack Damage, Culling Strike and Minion Damage and then switch those supports out for GMP, Faster Projectiles and Faster Casting for a Flame Sentinel spectres, the Tentacle Miscreation will now have the second set of supports instead of the first.
(I know I explained what you already knew there for the most part)

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Promo1987 wrote:

Since a lot of current builds will get 'broken', I am going to assume a full respec is in order?

1.2.0, like our other major expansions, will include a one-time optional full passive reset. That's part of why 1.2.0 is a good time to release this change, since this will be occuring then.

We shouldn't have to respec because you fixed a bug, so RF hopefully will be getting buffed as a result, even if it's 100% increased damage it's good enough as the atziri scepter will be another goal to reach, even with no damage buff at all it 100% NEEDS the base AoE radius to be increased enough to counter the loss of carcass jack, honestly I found it difficult and annoying to play RF with such a small AoE radius, the carcass jack felt like a requirement.

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Nemacyst wrote:

So if trap and mine DMG no longer apply simultaneously why are they grouped together on the skills tree. Its almost like this exploit was meant to be exploited. You can't tell me there was a lack of foresight to see this.This should have been addressed before these passives came into existence.

I imagine the original intention was simply thematic and utilitarian. Mines and traps traps are fundamentally similar (given that a mine literally a kind of trap) and there's not that much space they can put new stuff on the skill tree without really remapping an area. Remember, the skill tree still needs to be legible, even though it's complex.

EDIT:

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oBLACKIECHANo wrote:

with no damage buff at all it 100% NEEDS the base AoE radius to be increased enough to counter the loss of carcass jack

Or you could just wear carcass jack.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Let me try explaining since you failed to comprehend over and over again in this thread.

irony - noun - ^ that.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

- You want 4 spectres active at once but with different supports for each of them. Say 5 supports each, but you just want to use one 6L to do this.

- Another player is melee and uses Dual Strike with multi-target supports and Double Strike single target supports.

this makes absolutely no sense and isn't even remotely comparable. the specter skill RAISES and retains 1-5 spectres (depending on gear/passives. wait, maybe 1-6...). if i run 5 spectres, each spectre is only 20% of the skill.

the dual strike is an attack. it... attacks. it's not a minion. your example is just plain absurd.

and it also doesn't even address the point - 4 (or 5, or 6) supported spectres is 4 supported spectres. they EACH get the same amount of links. they don't multiply. their links don't stack. there's no circumventing in this. if we can't use DIFFERENT supports for spectres, all it means is that we have no incentive, whatsoever, to diversify spectres. we'd have every incentive to run the type of spectre that's being most supported... 4/5/6 times. it's LESS diverse (and less fun) and more tedious - the OPPOSITE of the stated claim for this change.

you say it's not fair that a summoner gets supported spectres because of dual strike. this makes no sense and is 100% irrelevant. the active spectres are going to be fully supported, one way or another.

scenario : spectres in a 4L with minion life, minion damage, and raise spectre...

a 4L ranged spectre with gmp isn't any more powerful than a 4L evangelist with inc dur or a 4L necromancer with aoe or a 4L bear with faster attacks. using one of each is STILL only 4 4L spectres. they don't multiply. they don't combine their skills. there's no "9L" spectre or "11L chest" in this like someone fallaciously claimed.

there are no synergies, and they're not voltron. they don't combine into megaspectre with extra supports.

if we can't use different supports, everyone's going to use one type. that's it. it's simple. and it has nothing to do with dual strike... ever.

get ready to see any remaining summoner running nothing but evangelists... or whatever the token spectre of the patch is. diversity's dead. stick a fork in it.

using your logic, dual strike has an unfair advantage because it can be supported with a gazillion different gems, unlike portal. or auras. ...or RF. so unfair!

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robmafia wrote:

this makes absolutely no sense and isn't even remotely comparable. the specter skill RAISES and and retains 1-5 spectres (depending on gear/passives. wait, maybe 1-6...). if i run 5 spectres, each spectre is only 20% of the skill.

I generally don't like doing this, because it is quite obvious that you are inclined not to admit that what you are proposing is indeed snapshotting, but a lot of what you are saying here is just reaching. First and foremost, the skill only raises 1 spectre on it's own, you have to augment it through the passive tree and gear for more, so saying each spec is only 20% of the skill is a ludicrous reasoning when comparing it to an attack skill. That would be like saying one attack is only X% of the skill with faster attacks added on. So, keeping that in mind, the question becomes: Why should summoners be allowed to have one single skill that creates 2-4 different spectres with different supports that can all be "used" at the same time, but no other build has a skill with such a capability?

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robmafia wrote:

the dual strike is an attack. it... attacks. it's not a minion. your example is just plain absurd.

Again, I feel a reach. Your minion is just a minion... it still has to do something! Either attack or cast a spell. As Mark has already pointed out, even a zombie's attack is a skill they have to use.

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robmafia wrote:

and it also doesn't even address the point - 4 (or 5, or 6) supported spectres is 4 supported spectres. they EACH get the same amount of links. they don't multiply. their links don't stack. there's no circumventing in this. if we can't use DIFFERENT supports for spectres, all it means is that we have no incentive, whatsoever, to diversify spectres. we'd have every incentive to run the type of spectre that's being most supported... 4/5/6 times. it's LESS diverse (and less fun) and more tedious - the OPPOSITE of the stated claim for this change.

Each may have the same amount of links, but if the links have different supports in them, supports that are no longer in the item after being switched out, it is still snapshotting! The biggest reason to stop snapshotting is to stop snapshotting, not just to create more diversity and fun (and who knows what ideas they have that can now be implemented with the removal of this). Spectre diversity will likely be null and void because of this, but if it is a means to an end to stop snapshotting then I will gladly accept that.

Believe me when I say I know this will somehow be refuted by you, but at the end of the day, it really does not matter. This is still going to happen when the patch goes through. A dev, of all people you have argued with on this, has stated as much.

Latter half of this thread tl;dr

robmafia is really mad and refuses accept change.