GGGs reasoning on not making a SFL?

It's not about prohibition. It's about choice. When an item or skill is really strong, everyone will try to use that skill. It's bad because when choosing between the old spark and for example the old arc, everyone would choose the old spark. Even though they would probably be happier with a more balanced skill because it wouldn't allow them to instantly faceroll the game. It's the same with trading and SF. If you give players the choice, almost all will opt for the easier choice which is trading. Even though that makes PoE a casual game and they came here to play a hardcore one. And then because their expectations are unrealistic because of trading, they complain that "nothing good ever drops".

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This doesn't make a lot of sense, because trading is — and I'm using the most literal sense of the word here — optional.

Trading is 100% NOT optional if a player wants to experience every aspect of PoE. (trading not included ofc :P)

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ecogen wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This doesn't make a lot of sense, because trading is — and I'm using the most literal sense of the word here — optional.

Trading is 100% NOT optional if a player wants to experience every aspect of PoE. (trading not included ofc :P)

It is optional. Much like eating. I believe what Scrotie is saying is, if you don't like chicken ramens, you always have the option to starve. Which is pretty much what you're doing to your PoE experience by not trading. Starving your progression.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I feel the same is true with trading. I simply don't see it as the real culprit here, despite all the hate it receives. I firmly believe the problems stem from the game itself, specifically its itemization — that is, how rare affixes and uniques are designed (this is a separate issue from how often they drop). I think a lot of the dullness of both loot finding and trading stems from itemization dullness where it's all too easy for one item to be strictly superior to another.

This doesn't mean I think things are horrible. It just means I think they're flawed. Overall, I consider the itemization of the game to be satisfactory, but definitely not on a "wow awesome" level. I think this because I consider trading in the game to be satisfactory, but definitely not on a "wow awesome" level.

I agree with the general sentiment about itemization but feel you're slightly off with the actual diagnosis -- specifically, i) it's not just about affixes, ii) it's not just about it being boring.

It's not just about affixes, it's also about the colors, sockets and links, and the base item that drops. Up to four links isn't much of a problem (though a solo self found player can still want for fusings at that stage, somewhat depending on luck) but 5-links represent a very steep jump, particularly in terms of links. And all this assuming you get the right base type of armor and weapon, in the correct level range -- and even among weapons, probably the "fast" variant of whichever weapon you're looking for, since attack speed is so powerful.

And it's not also just about being boring -- you *need* some baseline of item quality to get through Merciless, to have a moderate amount of +life (50+ on at least a few items) and maxed resists (I'm not even going to get into self-found CI). And here's the thing, life and max resists don't represent a power jump for one's character, they represent the fulfillment of requirements for the most basic of survival. The game doesn't guarantee this -- and of course it doesn't have to, but the fact is sans trading, players have very limited measures to mitigate the randomness at this stage.

Regarding affixes themselves I can only say one thing -- I think it's genuinely bullshit to have affixes that are there for the sole purpose of diluting the affix pool (stuff like life regen, thorns, acc/light radius) I have no problem with these affixes but I do have a problem when they are useless for -every- build out there.

It becomes even more vexing when you consider that the combination of +flat value and +% value mods exist on items, and this weakens the entire idea of Defences (as in AR, EV, ES) in this game and makes it a nightmare to balance. You know this, of course -- the reason you're so enamored of your current character is because the items you're wearing allow you (and many others -- it's one of the solo-self-found-friendly synergies of this game) to sidestep the broken (again, for solo self-founders) Defence system, allowing you to enjoy the game. MOM/AA (/EB) is basically the new Grace/IR in terms of gear independence. But you didn't utilize some smart, undiscovered corner of itemization, you just avoided the blatantly broken bits -- and that's not really a good indicator for the state of items in this game.

A big problem here is the difference between the game being playable and the game being fun to play.

Anti SFL guys tend to make the argument that you CAN play the game Self found now. The question is how many people really want to do that? I know there are some but I am definitely not one of them. The game can be played self found but I believe the vast majority of players would hate playing it like that. I think most people who come to this game want to eventually end up with a lot of good gear/uniques to make very powerful builds with, you simply can not do that Self found in the current game. This game is built for trading and that's a fact. I don't care if its possible for me to beat the game with a bunch of boring gear and mediocre rares. Eventually I want the stuff that I want and its not realistic to grind for 5000 hours to gear one character.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I feel the same is true with trading. I simply don't see it as the real culprit here, despite all the hate it receives. I firmly believe the problems stem from the game itself, specifically its itemization — that is, how rare affixes and uniques are designed (this is a separate issue from how often they drop). I think a lot of the dullness of both loot finding and trading stems from itemization dullness where it's all too easy for one item to be strictly superior to another.

My wanting to see a good SFL literally has nothing to do with anything you said there.

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b15h09 wrote:

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ecogen wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This doesn't make a lot of sense, because trading is — and I'm using the most literal sense of the word here — optional.

Trading is 100% NOT optional if a player wants to experience every aspect of PoE. (trading not included ofc :P)

It is optional. Much like eating. I believe what Scrotie is saying is, if you don't like chicken ramens, you always have the option to starve. Which is pretty much what you're doing to your PoE experience by not trading. Starving your progression.

No it is literally not optional, given that people don't have infinite time. I'll give you a simple example. With the current drop rates, craft 1 GG item for any slot and by GG I mean GG. It will take about 10 years of farming if we go with the average cost and with the average exa/et drop rates. And before people go all "LEL YOU WANT KAOMS RAINING FROM THE SKY" I'll say again: 10 years for 1 GG item.

Most players in PoE have unconsciously created a ceiling for solo play and don't even take into account other aspects in the game which have been labeled in their heads as achievable only by trade/rmt. That's why they have the balls to say "you can play SF just fine in the current leagues". "You can play SF just fine" for me means: I can experience EVERYTHING the game has to offer before I fucking die from old age.

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ecogen wrote:

and by GG I mean GG.

Gotta love the objective standard of measurement applied here.

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ephetat wrote:

I agree with the general sentiment about itemization but feel you're slightly off with the actual diagnosis -- specifically, i) it's not just about affixes, ii) it's not just about it being boring.

It's not just about affixes, it's also about the colors, sockets and links, and the base item that drops. Up to four links isn't much of a problem (though a solo self found player can still want for fusings at that stage, somewhat depending on luck) but 5-links represent a very steep jump, particularly in terms of links. And all this assuming you get the right base type of armor and weapon, in the correct level range -- and even among weapons, probably the "fast" variant of whichever weapon you're looking for, since attack speed is so powerful.

And it's not also just about being boring -- you *need* some baseline of item quality to get through Merciless, to have a moderate amount of +life (50+ on at least a few items) and maxed resists (I'm not even going to get into self-found CI). And here's the thing, life and max resists don't represent a power jump for one's character, they represent the fulfillment of requirements for the most basic of survival. The game doesn't guarantee this -- and of course it doesn't have to, but the fact is sans trading, players have very limited measures to mitigate the randomness at this stage.

The problem isn't that it's a steep jump, the problem is that there is only one steep jump to make. For example, a 5S4L and a 4S4L feel too similar. In other words, it's boring: either you have the strictly superior, or you don't. It would be nice if there was some mechanic which would give players a theoretical reason to prefer a 6S5L over a 6L.

There are quite a bit of increased resistance nodes on the tree. I feel these are heavily underutilized by players, self-found players in particular. I understand they might not make your final build, but that's why God invented Orbs of Regret.

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ephetat wrote:

Regarding affixes themselves I can only say one thing -- I think it's genuinely bullshit to have affixes that are there for the sole purpose of diluting the affix pool (stuff like life regen, thorns, acc/light radius) I have no problem with these affixes but I do have a problem when they are useless for -every- build out there.

I actually mostly agree with this, at least in terms of rare items. Bad affixes shouldn't be bad affixes, they should be niche affixes. Hell, maybe even keep thorns, but give it large enough numbers to make it an actual build (perhaps not a great one, but at least less of a joke).

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

you guys don't really want to trade,so I don't think it's problems within trading itself which are causing your disgruntlement.

Trading isn't the culprit. Its the game itself. Many people in here like myself are not against trading, I do it plenty right now. Its with how finding and crafting your own stuff isn't at all a focus of this game.

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HiroProtagonist2332 wrote:

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ecogen wrote:

and by GG I mean GG.

Gotta love the objective standard of measurement applied here.

How about you not pulling things out of context, and actually reading the post. Stop trying to derail. If you have counter-arguments or if you have found ANY flaws at all in my logic feel free to rebut me. If not, don't post.