Reave

hm, ok, one more try because i think you are not getting my point... (and you really dont have to reiterate the whole thing for me, i am an active reader of the forums and not a total moron... )

i get the whole part about people not wanting to lose charges and all, never argued against it, no need to educate me here, thx. (in fact you were arguing, one could say raging, against the people in the patchnotes-thread that saw a problem in the new behaviour...)

i would go as far as to believe that its an intentional downside of this that the skill doesnt change to default-attack while charges are active.

but i cant understand why this has also to aply when there are no charges active. for me and for some other people this reduces the fun and the usefullness of reave (as i said before its in certain situations, and yes, now i have to leapslamleech mana back now and then - causing desynch sometimes... great...).

i just want to understand the reasoning behind this, if there is any, or at least know if this is due to technical reasons/limitations in the skill-mechanics and if they are going to work on this.

and this is something that cant be answered by speculation, so lets hope we get a clarification from ggg.

if you feel forced to answer to this again, you are welcome... ;)

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Clownkrieger wrote:

i would go as far as to believe that its an intentional downside of this that the skill doesnt change to default-attack while charges are active.

but i cant understand why this has also to aply when there are no charges active. for me and for some other people this reduces the fun and the usefullness of reave (as i said before its in certain situations, and yes, now i have to leapslamleech mana back now and then - causing desynch sometimes... great...).

i just want to understand the reasoning behind this, if there is any, or at least know if this is due to technical reasons/limitations in the skill-mechanics and if they are going to work on this.

and this is something that cant be answered by speculation, so lets hope we get a clarification from ggg.

if you feel forced to answer to this again, you are welcome... ;)

And for some it's not a downside at all.

Well, now that you mention it they never did get back to you on that specific possibility. Who knows, maybe it's currently impossible or just difficult, I'd assume they did think of that while making the fix. We can only guess.

And there's no need to be snippy about it, we're just talking and it is bumping the tread, you know.

"

Clownkrieger wrote:

i just want to understand the reasoning behind this, if there is any, or at least know if this is due to technical reasons/limitations in the skill-mechanics and if they are going to work on this.

and this is something that cant be answered by speculation, so lets hope we get a clarification from ggg.

This is my two cents as an another programmer myself.

The only reason I think why they choose this method is : "Default attack is actually a skill".

Development wised, all the skills are based on a kind of base class "skill" or something similar, to make them share the same kind of property and basic behavior. The "Default attack" might be the same as those, being a skill. This seems to be quite logical since "Reave reset stack when another skill is used". So Default Attack must be a skill. Thinking in another way, flasks are not resetting the stack, so they are not based on a skill.

Now, they chose to do it this way since they'd just have to fix behavior only in the Reave itself, "If not enough mana, don't do anything". This'd reduce the chances of any other bugs that might appear somewhere else from the fix, which do make sense, If something works, don't fix it.

They didn't chose to implement the fix inside the Default Attack since it's not the one generating this behavior.

The stack resetting algorithm might be like "If something other than me, me the specific instance of Reave from this specific gem, is executed, reset the stack". It could be that when a skill is used, the skill'd generating an event "Skill used", and dispatch it internally. Reave was implemented to listen to this specific event, and do the checking by itself. It just know that "something is executed", but might not known "is it a Default attack?". It's not even considering another Reave instance as a Reave itself. :P

They could have made the "Default attack" an exception from the above rules. But I guess it's kind of .... unsafe and quirky way to base the condition, tightly coupling with something else that might be change in the future.


Though, I still don't understand. Can you leech that much mana from default attack alone? How many time you have to do so to be able to Reave again? @_@

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twintales wrote:

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Though, I still don't understand. Can you leech that much mana from default attack alone? How many time you have to do so to be able to Reave again? @_@

i think you are on the right track here, twintales. and i really fear there is no solution as well :/

to your question: in my mf-setup my multistrike-reave costs 32 mana (6l with melee phys, lifeleech, as said multistrike, iiq an iir-gem. reave lvl 18 atm).

i have 2% manaleech on gear. my defaultattack does max ~1,1k dmg/hit @2,5 aps.

without manaregen i would need 2 hits or max 1 second to get enough mana for reave (-> multistrike, 3 hits). and yes, i can leech enough mana in a second (~550 mana).

in fact, on normal maps, with regen and perhaps mana that was leeched from earlier hits i just need(ed...) 1 defaultattack to switch back to reave.

im playing a really tanky duellist, i horde mobs with endu-cry, stay right in the middle and kill them with reave. i need my life and granite-flasks. when i encounter rares or mapbosses, i can simply focus on them, cast endu-cry/vulnerability/enfeeble (all with BM-gem), their escort will die in the reave-multistrike-aoe-madness.

now a scenario that just occured: spider lair map, no regen-mod. i was focussing on that nasty spider-boss when - i think - suddenly an attack missed and i ran out of mana. the duellist stopped doing anything! the spider moved away from me, he didnt follow, although i had it highlighted and the finger pressed on the left mousebutton. escort kept attacking me, the spider flickered back, viper-charges where sucking the life out of my poor duellist who was still doing... nothing... although there where no aoe-charges active.

well, i escaped with leapslam, leapslamleeched enough mana back (that takes some time and can cause desynch, had this already) and killed her then with reave, but it really was a close call.

see, its that idiotic behaviour thats annoying me. even if would need 5 hits to leech enough mana back i would prefer to switch to standard-attack when i have no mana (and no charges, no problem with that, its just another second). granted that its specific and occurs seldom under harsh circumstances, but. it. is. annoying.

would be great if they can find a solution so that you use the default-attack if there is not enough mana but no aoe-charges active :(

I will keep my post short, as it seems like at first glance this is quite a heated discussion at the moment.

+1 for new reave "not attacking to preserve stacks" is trying to kill me and I hate it please oh please just... make it stop. Either don't lose stacks on basic attacks, or just let me lose my stacks and keep attacking.

If i can use my basic attack, i can regen es, and i can regen mana...

Everyone once in awhile now, I just stand there in the middle of a pack of mobs like a dummy.. standing there saying "I am out of mana"

I would much rather do one basic attack, lose my stacks, leech enough mana to start reave again, and carry on with life.


I hate it i hate it i hate it i hate it i hate it i hate it

I guess the only win win solution for all side is: extending the expiration a bit, even to 3s. Should be enough, and make the stack decrease by half when using other skills...

Huh.. why did I feel like that kind of Change would also come with damage reduction. ...

The new change is already a damage reduction:

If you only have enough mana/leech to attack with reave 2x a second, but you attack say... 2.5 a second, that .5 of an attack will simply not happen.

Then it is up to the player to adjust the builds it self to be able to support mana cost of their setup.

That's why there is BM, EB and even those mana related nodes on the tree.

Lucky that I started as a witch and go EB, full aura stacking mode.

:p

edit: bad big typos.

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twintales wrote:

Then it is up to the player to adjust the builds it self to be able to support mana cost of their setup.

*s*... so why was that change made again? now we have an intentional damage reduction?!

it should be: support your reave with enough mana or you switch to defaultattack and lose the charges.

and not: support your reave with enough mana or you will do nothing if you run out of mana.

just like with every other skill.

if theres a need for a nerf, pls, introduce a reduced damage effectiveness. but not this bs.

Why it got changed? The answer is some group of players DID GIVING FEEDBACK to GGG during that early period after released, because they don't think losing the stack should ever happened, which GGG agree, and so do I, even though I didn't got affected by it that much.

Now if you want them to fix it in some other way, you might have to counter that on the bug forum, with some sensible way you think it should be. But If you wanted it to be like before the FIX, I'm sure the old problem will rise again for eternity.

And, to speak it out loud, it was not even a slight damage reduction since you are still doing the same damage per hit. Please don't apply what happened to you, to all the Reaver here.

Anyway, even if you/theycould come up with some good way to fix, it'd take a while before they'd fix it since they are gearing toward v.1 ... and followed by lots of fixing/balancing afterward .-.