Reave

"

Softspoken wrote:

I get the feeling that if cleave didn't exist and break the rules in the way it does, you wouldn't be insisting we make its rhyming Intellect counterpart break the rules the same way.

It has nothing to do with cleave, though if there wasn't a dual wield aoe for swords and axes either I'd probably be a little upset about that too. I certainly wouldn't ignore the issue because they also screwed dual sword users.

Bottom line is, no matter what you or I think:
1. There is an option to use 2 daggers or 2 claws and there are no aoe options for that build.
2. All the other weapon combinations have an aoe option available that makes use of both the main hand and the offhand slots.

All of the skills available to daggers and claws are better with a shield. For literally every other weapon combination there is a designed aoe weapon skill available, but not for daggers and claws.
When reave was announced it made sense for this skill to fill that design gap (because it was an int/dex aoe and daggers and claws are the int/dex weapons and the int/dex class is a dual wield class), but it didn't do that. I've already said this in my first post, but it simply doesn't make sense for this not to be a dual wield skill and now dual daggers and claws users are STILL without a designed aoe implementation.
The only reason there hasn't been more outburst about this is that it can at least BE USED as a dual wield aoe, it's just a really shit decision to do so.

For a game that prides itself on customization, this design decision pigeonholes competitive players into using a shield unless you're using cleave or a 2 hander. It should be optional and based on whether you prefer offense or defense, not a matter of one clearly being better than the other.

guess you can still dual strike with splash, however i still only say that due to my desire for a dagger/claw build with attempts to get both adder's touch and a leaching claw. both those two things are already only working on respective weapons' damage regardless currently.

"

Softspoken wrote:

My only complaint is that there seems to be a dead zone immediately on either side of you. I sort of wish reave hit a small region around you in addition to the wave, just so that an enemy walking up beside you would still take damage if you're at max stacks. I'd gladly give up some of the width on the cone / wedge in exchange for this. Part of this is born from visual confusion personally, but it also seems like the attack is (too) easily dodged by some of your AoE targets brushing past you.

I think one of the devs said the wedge is 180 degs, like cleave. Enemies seem to pass mostly due to desync, they are most probably already behind you.

"

twintales wrote:

Since I'm a weirdo, using a weird skill on a weird build, with a weird character combination, I'm routing for A witch using sword with shield, Reaving stuff and tank them on her tiny HP. So I cannot get the mind drinker so soon since I had to head for the HP nodes in marauder - templar - duelist, and took some one hand nodes along the way.
Though, the initial plan was playing a burning Reaver with the Goddess scorned... but since the price is still on the roof, I've to stick with this setting, until the end of the league when I could make one in Hardcore.

Using a witch too, playing a summon/melee hybrid focused on AoE, summons alleviate that problem from previous quote by keeping enemies in front of you. Dagger mostly, or anything that comes along, self-founders can't be choosers. And using a smallish round shield with that dagger, although the waifish, pasty-legged little witch sure seems like she's used to dissecting frogs with a gutting hook in off-hand... well, rhoas aren't frogs.

And I already mentioned it here some pages ago, but here goes again. Although there were examples of dual-wielding in real life combat situations, those skills are both extremely rare and limited to dueling (mostly for show) or beertap room-sized scuffles. Anyone who wades into full-scale combat with shit flying everywhere with another weapon in off-hand is a bloody idiot. Hell, even Gimli, son of Loins (aren't we all), ditched his berserker two-hand style and picked himself a shield before going to Helm's deep. Style is a poor replacement for pieces of skull, small titanium plates fare a bit better.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Bottom line is, no matter what you or I think:
1. There is an option to use 2 daggers or 2 claws and there are no aoe options for that build.
2. All the other weapon combinations have an aoe option available that makes use of both the main hand and the offhand slots.

All of the skills available to daggers and claws are better with a shield. For literally every other weapon combination there is a designed aoe weapon skill available, but not for daggers and claws.
When reave was announced it made sense for this skill to fill that design gap (because it was an int/dex aoe and daggers and claws are the int/dex weapons and the int/dex class is a dual wield class), but it didn't do that. I've already said this in my first post, but it simply doesn't make sense for this not to be a dual wield skill and now dual daggers and claws users are STILL without a designed aoe implementation.
The only reason there hasn't been more outburst about this is that it can at least BE USED as a dual wield aoe, it's just a really shit decision to do so.

Has it occured to you that not all weapon types should be identical in regards to skill options? Daggers and claws, at least in my mind, does not evoke a strong AoE theme. They do however excel at single target damage and crit builds. And since the addition of Melee Splash, with Dual Strike, this already gives you a strong AoE option.

However, while I'm loving Reave in it's current implementation, perhaps throwing dual weapon users a small bone, apart from the "more" Attack Speed boost wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps faster charge generation, slightly increased AoE range?

"

yhateful wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Bottom line is, no matter what you or I think:
1. There is an option to use 2 daggers or 2 claws and there are no aoe options for that build.
2. All the other weapon combinations have an aoe option available that makes use of both the main hand and the offhand slots.

All of the skills available to daggers and claws are better with a shield. For literally every other weapon combination there is a designed aoe weapon skill available, but not for daggers and claws.
When reave was announced it made sense for this skill to fill that design gap (because it was an int/dex aoe and daggers and claws are the int/dex weapons and the int/dex class is a dual wield class), but it didn't do that. I've already said this in my first post, but it simply doesn't make sense for this not to be a dual wield skill and now dual daggers and claws users are STILL without a designed aoe implementation.
The only reason there hasn't been more outburst about this is that it can at least BE USED as a dual wield aoe, it's just a really shit decision to do so.

Has it occured to you that not all weapon types should be identical in regards to skill options? Daggers and claws, at least in my mind, does not evoke a strong AoE theme. They do however excel at single target damage and crit builds. And since the addition of Melee Splash, with Dual Strike, this already gives you a strong AoE option.

However, while I'm loving Reave in it's current implementation, perhaps throwing dual weapon users a small bone, apart from the "more" Attack Speed boost wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps faster charge generation, slightly increased AoE range?

It has actually occured to me, problem is that reave is already an aoe designed to be used with these weapons which opens up the gates for the issue.

"

raics wrote:

"

Softspoken wrote:

My only complaint is that there seems to be a dead zone immediately on either side of you. I sort of wish reave hit a small region around you in addition to the wave, just so that an enemy walking up beside you would still take damage if you're at max stacks. I'd gladly give up some of the width on the cone / wedge in exchange for this. Part of this is born from visual confusion personally, but it also seems like the attack is (too) easily dodged by some of your AoE targets brushing past you.

I think one of the devs said the wedge is 180 degs, like cleave. Enemies seem to pass mostly due to desync, they are most probably already behind you.

"

twintales wrote:

Since I'm a weirdo, using a weird skill on a weird build, with a weird character combination, I'm routing for A witch using sword with shield, Reaving stuff and tank them on her tiny HP. So I cannot get the mind drinker so soon since I had to head for the HP nodes in marauder - templar - duelist, and took some one hand nodes along the way.
Though, the initial plan was playing a burning Reaver with the Goddess scorned... but since the price is still on the roof, I've to stick with this setting, until the end of the league when I could make one in Hardcore.

Using a witch too, playing a summon/melee hybrid focused on AoE, summons alleviate that problem from previous quote by keeping enemies in front of you. Dagger mostly, or anything that comes along, self-founders can't be choosers. And using a smallish round shield with that dagger, although the waifish, pasty-legged little witch sure seems like she's used to dissecting frogs with a gutting hook in off-hand... well, rhoas aren't frogs.

And I already mentioned it here some pages ago, but here goes again. Although there were examples of dual-wielding in real life combat situations, those skills are both extremely rare and limited to dueling (mostly for show) or beertap room-sized scuffles. Anyone who wades into full-scale combat with shit flying everywhere with another weapon in off-hand is a bloody idiot. Hell, even Gimli, son of Loins (aren't we all), ditched his berserker two-hand style and picked himself a shield before going to Helm's deep. Style is a poor replacement for pieces of skull, small titanium plates fare a bit better.

A dagger and a shield is about as viable as two daggers irl, if not less.

What would happen in real life, is that some guy with 1 dagger or a gun would just sneak in and kill piety while she sleeps. There's no reason to trudge through all the other nonsense on the way there, or to murder thousands of people who are blindly following the orders of a lunatic.

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

A dagger and a shield is about as viable as two daggers irl, if not less.

What would happen in real life, is that some guy with 1 dagger or a gun would just sneak in and kill piety while she sleeps. There's no reason to trudge through all the other nonsense on the way there, or to murder thousands of people who are blindly following the orders of a lunatic.

You know, with a nick like that I thought you'd remember Roman empire, some versions of iconic gladius were not much longer then a longish dagger and were used prevalently for trusting combined with an oversized shield. It was just long enough to slip beside the enemy's shield into his guts and not much longer than that, Romans were sparing in everything but pleasures of life.
The weapon was was used in centuries for centuries (i made a pun!) and was often ridiculed for its size by Rome's barbarian neighbors, you know what they say, if you got a short sword you also got short...

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Softspoken wrote:

I get the feeling that if cleave didn't exist and break the rules in the way it does, you wouldn't be insisting we make its rhyming Intellect counterpart break the rules the same way.

It has nothing to do with cleave, though if there wasn't a dual wield aoe for swords and axes either I'd probably be a little upset about that too. I certainly wouldn't ignore the issue because they also screwed dual sword users.

Bottom line is, no matter what you or I think:
1. There is an option to use 2 daggers or 2 claws and there are no aoe options for that build.
2. All the other weapon combinations have an aoe option available that makes use of both the main hand and the offhand slots.

If Cleave didn't exist, there would be no skills that make use of both hands simultaneously in a natural AoE style. Thus it pretty much has to be about Cleave, since without it there is no precedent for double simultaneous one-hander AoE (Least ambiguous way I could think of to put that) even being a thing that should exist. And to be honest, this quote:

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

Dual strike does this explicitly to be something cool and special that's different from other skills. Cleave does it (and has a big penalty to damage while dual wielding to try to make up for it) because of animations.
It is unlikely that other skills will do this, because that's simply not how dual wielding is supposed to work.

Indicates to me that double simultaneous one-hander AoE shouldn't exist, and only does because of limited animations. Dual Strike was made to be special, Cleave got through on a technicality: dual wield isn't about using both weapons at the same time in PoE.

"

Softspoken wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Softspoken wrote:

I get the feeling that if cleave didn't exist and break the rules in the way it does, you wouldn't be insisting we make its rhyming Intellect counterpart break the rules the same way.

It has nothing to do with cleave, though if there wasn't a dual wield aoe for swords and axes either I'd probably be a little upset about that too. I certainly wouldn't ignore the issue because they also screwed dual sword users.

Bottom line is, no matter what you or I think:
1. There is an option to use 2 daggers or 2 claws and there are no aoe options for that build.
2. All the other weapon combinations have an aoe option available that makes use of both the main hand and the offhand slots.

If Cleave didn't exist, there would be no skills that make use of both hands simultaneously in a natural AoE style. Thus it pretty much has to be about Cleave, since without it there is no precedent for double simultaneous one-hander AoE (Least ambiguous way I could think of to put that) even being a thing that should exist. And to be honest, this quote:

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

Dual strike does this explicitly to be something cool and special that's different from other skills. Cleave does it (and has a big penalty to damage while dual wielding to try to make up for it) because of animations.
It is unlikely that other skills will do this, because that's simply not how dual wielding is supposed to work.

Indicates to me that double simultaneous one-hander AoE shouldn't exist, and only does because of limited animations. Dual Strike was made to be special, Cleave got through on a technicality: dual wield isn't about using both weapons at the same time in PoE.

The thing about cleave vs reave is that they are both dual wielding classes. We know this because they both have a good number of dual wield nodes in the starter tree area.
One dual-wield class gets a natural aoe skill and the other does not. The fact that cleave is the only skill that does this is not really an argument since there are only two dual wield classes and one has it and the other is the source of the debate.

Design intention is exactly what this debate is about. We already know what their intention was, it just isn't a good design decision.
Regardless of whether they intended cleave to be a dual-wield aoe or not, it is, and its presence makes it so that one of the dual-wielding classes gets a natural dual aoe skill and the other does not.
Thing is, it makes much more sense to have two daggers and a shield/sword combo than two swords and a dagger/shield combo. The dagger+shield thing just seems so beyond insanely retarded the game's balance shouldn't even be a factor in a decision involving it. Just adjust the skills then balance them accordingly afterward.