Reave

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twintales wrote:

Now if you want them to fix it in some other way, you might have to counter that on the bug forum, with some sensible way you think it should be. But If you wanted it to be like before the FIX, I'm sure the old problem will rise again for eternity.

And, to speak it out loud, it was not even a slight damage reduction since you are still doing the same damage per hit. Please don't apply what happened to you, to all the Reaver here.

yeah, your right, posted late at the evening and recognized afterwards on my way to bed that i missed the part with the charge-loss in my statement. but i have no problem with fixing this problem for those who cried the loudest again. and i have never complained about any DR. tried to be a bit ironic in my previous statement :)

but... i have no general problems to support reave with enough mana, as other people obviously have/had, just situational ones. and i really wouldnt mind losing charges in this situations - but losing my LIFE because of that odd mechanic is quite a different story...

mana-support simply isnt an argument for that change here.

and regarding potential dps through aoe... i would rather guess its a buff that you can keep your charges now. the guy who had not enough mana to support his 2,5 aps, as from the example before, would have simply lost his charges - now he keeps them, pops a mana flask, and continues to benefit from that huge aoe... i dont think thats a damage reduction...

imo this whole thing is a catastrophe regarding fast/fluid gameplay - and i am not alone with that - and all in all this implementation seems horribly half-baked. and i would still like to get at least a hint on the opinion ggg has regarding this...

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Clownkrieger wrote:

the guy who had not enough mana to support his 2,5 aps, as from the example before, would have simply lost his charges - now he keeps them, pops a mana flask, and continues to benefit from that huge aoe... i dont think thats a damage reduction...

imo this whole thing is a catastrophe regarding fast/fluid gameplay - and i am not alone with that - and all in all this implementation seems horribly half-baked. and i would still like to get at least a hint on the opinion ggg has regarding this...

I don't really see what's wrong with using flasks, they exist to be used. If you can't support your skill cost due to not having enough leech/regen or being in a gear transition or whatever, you will have a mana flask in your belt and pop it from time to time. It doesn't mean you're a pro player if you never use mana flasks (nothing on your plate, it's just a general sentiment).

And I'd like to see the distinction in behavior between 'no charges' and 'has charges' states no less then you, if nothing then for consistence sake, I hate exceptions.

This is why I have half dropped out from the argument; people seem to again and again think this is a mana problem and it drives me mad.

97% of the time, my reave sustains just fine. That other 3% of the time when odd things happen, I stand there trying to kill myself.

Now, it seems to me, that your argument for mana management is flawed at the core because its the reason y'all complained and got the change in the first place. Y'all couldn't support your mana cost, so you whined to GGG about 'fixing' the depletion of your stacks.

If you are going to argue against my point, please don't use a flawed counterpoint.

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RabidMonk wrote:

Now, it seems to me, that your argument for mana management is flawed at the core because its the reason y'all complained and got the change in the first place. Y'all couldn't support your mana cost, so you whined to GGG about 'fixing' the depletion of your stacks.

If you are going to argue against my point, please don't use a flawed counterpoint.

yupp, trying to get this in their heads as well. seems senseless.

just downloading the new patch, something was changed again, intereted to see what this will do. but i dont think it will solve the problem with reave as main skill on the lmb.

but i had an idea yesterday that can solve the do-nothing-behaviour: you dont lose stacks, if you use the move-only-skill, right? so wouldnt it be possible to change reave so that it will execute a move-command when there is no mana? so at least you would move in that situations, following mobs or moving up to them or escape without the need to use a movement-skill. (not sure if thats exactly what was changed, will test later)

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Clownkrieger wrote:

but i had an idea yesterday that can solve the do-nothing-behaviour: you dont lose stacks, if you use the move-only-skill, right? so wouldnt it be possible to change reave so that it will execute a move-command when there is no mana? so at least you would move in that situations, following mobs or moving up to them or escape without the need to use a movement-skill. (not sure if thats exactly what was changed, will test later)

citing myself, but if im not mistaken thats exactly what happens now! just tested by depleting my mana by shift-attacking, had no 0-regen-mod till now. but thats much better already! :D

Hi, I created a Shadow and started using Reave, assigned to my left mouse button.

When I'm out of mana, the character just stands there, instead of reverting to default attack. I asked around if this was a bug, but was told it's intended because of the added effect which is cancelled when performing any other attack. Why's that? If I'm out of mana and can't keep up, why does it matter?

Suggestion: when out of mana, perform default attack for reave, and make default attack an exception for reave area of effect timer being cancelled if that's really important.

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Xarick wrote:

When I'm out of mana, the character just stands there, instead of reverting to default attack. I asked around if this was a bug, but was told it's intended because of the added effect which is cancelled when performing any other attack. Why's that? If I'm out of mana and can't keep up, why does it matter?

The change originated from a suggestion earlier in the thread, from the use scenario of a player with good / high mana regen (But probably a small mana pool) who was more concerned with keeping their AoE stacks than maximizing attacks per second. This player expressed that they would rather wait a half second between attacks than accidentally use a normal attack and thus lose their range.

A little later, Reave was patched to its current behavior: no attack at all when out of mana.

Now this is unrelated to the quoted post, but more for the thread in general:
While that change fixed the initial complaint, it started a bevy of new ones. A very popular usage pattern for reave is to not care about preserving stacks but focus instead on maintaining damage/attacks per second. For this usage, a basic attack instead of reave isn't just an acceptable substitute, it's a necessity.

Personally I think they should revert the change. It was done with the best of intentions, but it's getting way more heat than the original "Losing stacks when trying to use Reave" situation ever generated. Unless of course, they can come up with an elegant third option. As an aside, I suspect making the basic attack an exception to the 'other attacks / actions remove Reave stacks' rule won't be allowed.

I was referring to this:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Thristian wrote:

It's too easy to lose Reave levels, part II: the no-mana case where I hit the Reave button and it switches to the default attack and cancels all my Reave levels. Honestly, I've got enough mana-regen that I'd rather my character sit there and do nothing, letting me keep my Reave levels, than use the default attack and let me start over.

I'll look into what can be done here - the specific case of Reave defaulting to the basic attack does seem like a bad interaction.

specifically. (Page 31 in this thread.) The complaints about losing stacks in general are one thing, the 'losing stacks because I tried to use Reave when I didn't have enough mana to use Reave and used a basic attack instead' case is a bit more specific.

I could be reading the thread incorrectly, of course, but it seems that most of the complaints stem from purposefully using a non-Reave skill and losing the stacks.

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Softspoken wrote:

As an aside, I suspect making the basic attack an exception to the 'other attacks / actions remove Reave stacks' rule won't be allowed.

I was suggesting that it wouldn't reset the timer, nor increase the stacks. The default attack would also not benefit from what's already stacked, so no area of effect attack. And this only works when the character doesn't have enough mana to attack with reave, but it's still intending to do so. If there's a default attack assigned to another hotkey, it would reset the stacks, because that wouldn't be the intent.

Example of my suggested behaviour:

1. I attack with Reave and get out of mana after 3 stacks.
2. My 4th attack with Reave will perform a default attack, no stack increase or loss, no aoe benefit, stack timer countdown unaffected but timer is based on the last successful use of Reave which was at the end of situation 1.
3. My mana regenerated enough and in time to perform a 5th attack with Reave before the end of the stack timer countdown initiated at the end of 1. So this means, my stacks are increased to 4.

Resulting behaviour: Current Reave stacks aren't lost and the character doesn't stand still doing nothing on the 4th attack attempt.