"The motivation there is trying to make combat as good as possible" - Chris Wilson

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

For all the gaslighters that keep trying to say that PoE2 was always intended to become a zoom zoom projectile filled screen clear simulator.

"Grenade Launchers in Path of Exile 2: Return of the Ancients"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsp5NFH5714





ahh im so excited to play this

"

Exactly, and the more bloated and convoluted the stat check requirements become, the less likely it is for most people to engage with the int aspects of it (and instead follow guides blindly) or stick with the game itself too. It gets progressively more overwhelming and less rewarding, especially when one gives up on trying to craft a build themselves.

What exactly will most people feel a sense of accomplishment with when they end up outsourcing the int and no dex to speak of? Will they feel amazing because they followed a build guide? lol

Soon they will add AI option to create ingame builds ) They made 1 step towards that with 0.5.0 acknowledging that everyone plays with buildguides already and so here is your ingame builder -)

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JODYHiGHR0LLER#6171 wrote:

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

For all the gaslighters that keep trying to say that PoE2 was always intended to become a zoom zoom projectile filled screen clear simulator.

"Grenade Launchers in Path of Exile 2: Return of the Ancients"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsp5NFH5714





ahh im so excited to play this

Damn man, i miss the old mercenary gameplay video they made in 2023 or 2024, that's what i wanted poe 2 to be like..

Maybe with a little bit more speed, resistance, and an extra projectile at endgame, but it still would be a readable game while being considerably faster than No Rest for the Wicked

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JODYHiGHR0LLER#6171 wrote:

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

For all the gaslighters that keep trying to say that PoE2 was always intended to become a zoom zoom projectile filled screen clear simulator.

"Grenade Launchers in Path of Exile 2: Return of the Ancients"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsp5NFH5714





ahh im so excited to play this

Exactly my point. From the early warrior showcases to... this ... lmao. How the mighty have fallen. BTW you could do that already with grenades, not sure how this is much different. You can do even better then what they show too, use mirage archer and deadeye to completely get lost in the visual clarity of it all 🤣

The grenade launcher trailer also had a shield that works like a projectile shot with teleportation & bomb effects. Haha.

PoE2 is like 99% Diablo & 1% Soulsborne. I think it should be 50%/50%.

The shield should have much shorter range, better defense, inferior offense, & faster attack rate. Maybe the shield could reflect enemy projectiles.

To sell to Diablo gamers who take pride in easy mode repetition, GGG should offer any gamer a magic bomb that explodes the entire screen with residual magic heat that continues to damage all enemies on the screen (think of a magical version of a tactical nuke that does not harm you).

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Scholar_of_1st_Lag#7529 wrote:

The grenade launcher trailer also had a shield that works like a projectile shot with teleportation & bomb effects. Haha.

PoE2 is like 99% Diablo & 1% Soulsborne. I think it should be 50%/50%.

The shield should have much shorter range, better defense, inferior offense, & faster attack rate. Maybe the shield could reflect enemy projectiles.

To sell to Diablo gamers who take pride in easy mode repetition, GGG should offer any gamer a magic bomb that explodes the entire screen with residual magic heat that continues to damage all enemies on the screen (think of a magical version of a tactical nuke that does not harm you).

Also, something interesting a friend of mine pointed out: "I thought they weren't doing movement skills like that anymore". A good catch by him, I didn't view it like that, but that is also true. Not only does it screen clear nuke, it also doubles as a movement skill.

They really are speed-running towards fully becoming PoE1.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

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Vyend#2601 wrote:

To me poe 2 feels like 75% int and 25% dex, stuff like dodge roll or "weighty" attacks only really works in the campaign bcs of the way end game mechanics, monster mods, etc, are designed

And with the new ritual rework where you can spawn 5 or 6 bosses inside a ritual, it'll basically become an int game just like poe 1, because there's not going to be any space left for mechanical skill, it's literally just a stat check to see how fast you can kill the bosses, or how you can stack multiple recovery mechanics on top of each other like the new runes, leech, recoup, multiple dmg mitigation loops, etc

Exactly, and the more bloated and convoluted the stat check requirements become, the less likely it is for most people to engage with the int aspects of it (and instead follow guides blindly) or stick with the game itself too. It gets progressively more overwhelming and less rewarding, especially when one gives up on trying to craft a build themselves.

What exactly will most people feel a sense of accomplishment with when they end up outsourcing the int and no dex to speak of? Will they feel amazing because they followed a build guide? lol

Hey Guys,

First off, thanks Vyend for the feedback..always appreciate it! I *WAS* going to say "No problem!" to your statement of "Hope you don't mind the intromission" but then thought .. what the heck is that word .. so I looked it up .. and I DO MIND LOL. I won't type the definition in the forums but I lol'd (assuming it was a typo). If not..then I'll give you firm handshake, look you straight in the eye, and tell you "Sir, I'm flattered but I like the ladies." lol

Anyway, I agree that there are very few absolutes in the world and extremes of either INT or DEX probably is not a good thing. The one thing I think some people may not be putting enough value on are the different playing styles. As Ion points out (I like the new thread Ion...I think its important to have this conversation with DEX vs INT as I think we're starting to get to the root of the problem): INT outsources the playing style to the character.

Here is a contentious point: Some people like to play this way. Whether they just like to zone out to decompress, or they are RPG'ing, or "god mode" fantasy, or whatever: They are outsourcing their play to the character. Chris and Jonathan are completely different in this regard as Chris highlights in the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85YWm28CioI

At Minute 14:16 of the video, Chris defines himself as a "Character Power Fantasy" player ("Int" player) which he further elaborates as "You build a character who does the playing, and the best you do is kind of click the dexterity button to get better at it".

Seems like Jonathan is a "Player Power Fantasy" ("Dex" player) due to his love of Elden Ring combat. Player Power Fantasy = *YOU* do the playing.

I agree that some sort of blend of Int / Dex is the best option (could be a couple types of blends...one favoring INT and one favoring DEX).

However, the crucial point that I think Ion is bringing up in his new thread, they are opposing playing styles. If you want to outsource the play to the character (for whatever reason) that is INT. If you want more freedom of expression to control your character which is your preferred playing style then that is DEX.

I believe that if you cannot offer an option to satisfy both camps at, least moderately, then the friction will remain. Just because I don't play shooters, doesn't mean that you shouldn't love it. It's just not my style. I would classify myself as maybe 70% INT 30% DEX in the blend or even 65% INT or 35% DEX. I want to have some input but I don't want to work too hard at it. I know this is opposite of you guys so maybe there needs to be a spectrum that starts from the quarter percentiles (i.e. - you'll never have anything less than 25% of one side).

My concern with the DEX side is not that execution-based gameplay is bad. It is that PoE’s core loop is mapping, which means repeating the same actions constantly. The harder something is to execute, the harder it is to execute consistently, and the more fatiguing it becomes when repeated ad nauseam.

PoE is also already an INT-heavy game at the structural level. Gearing, crafting, passive trees, atlas setup, content selection, and build planning are all “play by preparation” systems. Most of your success is determined before you enter the map.

So I think the real tension is this: how much mechanical execution should the game demand after already requiring so much preparation? DEX gameplay can be great in boss fights or high-value moments, but if mapping requires constant high-attention execution, it may conflict with the core ARPG loop rather than enhance it.

The biggest negative of pushing PoE further toward DEX is approachability.

PoE is already intimidating for new players because the preparation layer is massive. Builds, gems, supports, crafting, defenses, atlas setup, trading, and league mechanics are all knowledge-heavy systems. That is already a huge INT barrier before the player even enters a map.

If the game also demands higher mechanical execution moment to moment, then new players face two gates at once. They need to understand the game well enough to make a viable character, and they need to execute well enough for that character to feel good.

That makes failure harder to diagnose. A new player may not know whether they died because their build is bad, their gear is bad, their defenses are incomplete, their skill setup is wrong, or they simply misplayed. When both the INT and DEX burden are high, the game becomes harder to learn because the feedback is muddy.

That does not mean DEX gameplay has no place. It means it should probably be concentrated in places where the player expects it: bosses, pinnacle encounters, dangerous rares, or optional high-reward content. Routine mapping should still let the player feel the payoff of preparation.

I also think part of the appeal of DEX-heavy gameplay is that execution creates an advantage that is harder to flatten. Build guides, trade access, crafting methods, and atlas strategies can all be shared, copied, and optimized by the community. Execution cannot be transferred as easily. You can explain a timing window or movement pattern, but you cannot hand someone the muscle memory or consistency to perform it.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

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Argonlo#6237 wrote:

Just rewatched some of the interview, OP conveniently left out some important information at the end because it doesnt support his narrative:

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Chris Wilson: I think that PoE 2 has grown into is far bigger than we, I mean both games grew into far bigger than we imagined, but PoE 2 has such a unique identity of itself. You know, it could have easily been PoE 1 with better graphics and different sockets, but then you made something that feels like a very modern action RPG in a really good way.

Really makes you think.

What? 😂
How does that change anything? You thought you had a gotcha moment with that somehow?

One of the creators of Poe2 directly disagrees with your premise. If the game really was as much a "zoom zoom projectile filled screen clear simulator" (in your own words), then CW wouldnt praise it like he did.

"Indeed it was, a fantastic opportunity, a missed opportunity in the end... it seems."
Also applies to this quote.

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Vyend#2601 wrote:

Damn man, i miss the old mercenary gameplay video they made in 2023 or 2024, that's what i wanted poe 2 to be like..

Maybe with a little bit more speed, resistance, and an extra projectile at endgame, but it still would be a readable game while being considerably faster than No Rest for the Wicked

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

Exactly my point. From the early warrior showcases to... this ... lmao. How the mighty have fallen.

This just proves my point that I was trying to make in other posts.
If you saw those class showcases (in campaign) and took them at face value and assumed that the game was going to play like that in the endgame youre delusional. At that point in development of the game there probably wasnt even anything resembling an endgame.
The purpose of those videos was to show off the skills. To do that they made a character with low damage, otherwise all the monsters would just die instantly and all you would see is running around.

Your whole idea of what the game was supposedly intended to be like is built on cherry picking information that you also misinterpret. Jonathan Rogers has repeated across many interviews time and again that PoE2 will still allow you to "become a god" eventually in end game. Those are his words.

And for good reason. The user above this makes an excellent point:
"It is that PoE’s core loop is mapping, which means repeating the same actions constantly. The harder something is to execute, the harder it is to execute consistently, and the more fatiguing it becomes when repeated ad nauseam."
-cyranis#7939

EDIT: And just to be clear, im not 100% happy with the current state of the game either. I think its mostly too easy in endgame and theres been too many of the ultra broken builds (CoC comet etc..). But I believe that just comes down to balance which GGG has said to adress in the coming 0.5.x patches, not due to some fundamental issue with the game.

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cyranis#7939 wrote:

PoE is also already an INT-heavy game at the structural level. Gearing, crafting, passive trees, atlas setup, content selection, and build planning are all “play by preparation” systems. Most of your success is determined before you enter the map.

So I think the real tension is this: how much mechanical execution should the game demand after already requiring so much preparation? DEX gameplay can be great in boss fights or high-value moments, but if mapping requires constant high-attention execution, it may conflict with the core ARPG loop rather than enhance it.

The biggest negative of pushing PoE further toward DEX is approachability.

PoE is already intimidating for new players because the preparation layer is massive. Builds, gems, supports, crafting, defenses, atlas setup, trading, and league mechanics are all knowledge-heavy systems. That is already a huge INT barrier before the player even enters a map.

If the game also demands higher mechanical execution moment to moment, then new players face two gates at once. They need to understand the game well enough to make a viable character, and they need to execute well enough for that character to feel good.

While I do agree with you here, the reality of INT is that it is becoming more and more of an optional requirement as time passes. Like you've mentioned yourself later on in your post:

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cyranis#7939 wrote:

Build guides, trade access, crafting methods, and atlas strategies can all be shared, copied, and optimized by the community.

And, especially now, from 0.5 moving forward... it will become even less of a wall in one of the most intimidating areas for new players.. build creation. I would go as far as to say the wall is almost completely nullified on the INT side from that perspective at least.

Therefore, only the players that would specifically choose to, would face two walls. (I'd be one of those, as that is a big part of the fun for me too)

That being said, the way you refer to these as walls, it's very interesting. All these systems are supposed to be fun, right? Perhaps we should ask ourselves this as well... at what point do all these INT adjacent systems become more of a chore or a wall as you refer to them then an actual fun part of the experience? There is a point at which "DEX" combat can become a detriment too if it is overtuned and incredibly unfair, for example.

I'd argue the wall for Int has been consistenly lowering for years now, precisely because a lot of people found it unfun at the level it was at.... but then what will we be left with when the wall is completely lowered down to a point where it isn't even fun anymore for those that want to experiment with it? I believe ingame build guides will achieve that. Moreover, what will those players be left with if they never find any joy in experimenting more with that INT side either?