"The motivation there is trying to make combat as good as possible" - Chris Wilson

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AbyssianOne#1625 wrote:

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cyranis#7939 wrote:

The early combat goal was real, but goals still have to survive contact with the rest of the game.

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So I don’t think dev quote archaeology settles the argument either way.

It's not an argument. It was the stated vision and plan for the game, that is what caused a lot of us to sign on, and why a lot of us are disappointed.

Couldn't agree more. And cyranis' points are moot since 0.1 wouldn't have shipped in the state it was unless that was the intended vision. The version of the game every POE1 content creator incessantly cried about in every video uploaded.

And every patch has drifted further and further away from 0.1 in it's gameplay, mechanics and general feel.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

F

"So Jonathan was working on the combat side of Path of Exile 2. My role on that project was mostly production, and he had played a lot of Elden Ring beforehand. I mean, it's better for him to discuss this, of course, and I'm sure he either has done or will do, but, he certainly was quite, you know, quite impressed by the combat in those games, and very much wanted to model aspects of that into Path of Exile 2, within reason, of course, you know, he still wanted to keep the Path of Exile DNA in there"

Jonathan knew what he wanted, sadly, too many people were against him.

Not sure I'm reading this all right or understand the full history, but If he's an Elden Ring fan it certainly isn't showing in any way whatsoever in PoE2. Almost makes me feel sorry for him if he genuinely wanted this game to be better but has had to cave for whatever reasons.

Don't like where PoE2 is heading and can't see myself playing it again, and while I can't in the end blame them for just going all in on whatever will make them the most money (Grandma Facebook game level RnG loot lotto slop no skill zoom zoom 1 click screenwipe mode that keeps the right kind of people who will buy the most MTX hooked), I resent the false advertising and promises.

Luckily for me and Jonathan maybe Elden Ring is still fun to play as are many other games.

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Skutz123#5377 wrote:

Luckily for me and Jonathan maybe Elden Ring is still fun to play as are many other games.

You should check out No Rest for the Wicked if you don't know about it. It seems to have achieved the blend of Elden Ring and ARPG that Jonathan was trying to go for.

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PoE2 can have better animations, better bosses, more active dodging, and more deliberate skill use, but if the economy, endgame, loot, monster density, and progression still reward speed above everything else, players will optimize toward speed. That isn’t the community “not letting Jonathan cook.” It’s the incentive structure doing exactly what it was built to do.

Slow and methodical combat does not really work with an RNG lottery reward structure. The moment rewards depend heavily on repeated pulls of the slot machine, players are pushed to increase the number of pulls per hour. That means faster clears, bigger density, stricter filters, and less patience for deliberate combat.

Well, it is still the community. Because they can always make combat slow no matter what loot system is there. It is just that the community (most casual part of it) will cry so loud for easy cookies so that they will have to obey.

But yeah, with bloated loot system they provoke players too much. Devs are afraid of negative feedback, and casuals is always a majority. So probably only those with titanium balls can try to resist. And - maybe - win a whole new audience as a result. But because it is not guaranteed, it is a financial risk no one is willing to take.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

compared to 20 years ago, is that INT is extremely easy to outsource.

This makes a lot of sense, and it's one of the reasons why i dislike certain design decisions of poe 2

I think that game devs are usually the ones who don't want to face this reality, like, they're the ones who want to believe the most in the novelty of player choice, that's why we have ultra conditional stuff on the tree like "increased duration of ailment on beast while your companion is in your presence" or "30% increased dmg while you have active charm" lol

No one will pick those bcs we have plenty of good non-conditional passives in tree, we could reduce the tree in 50% and nothing really interesting would be lost, but the devs will blindly believe that these things are interesting, and that it adds depth to the game, etc.

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cyranis#7939 wrote:

PoE2 can have better animations, better bosses, more active dodging, and more deliberate skill use, but if the economy, endgame, loot, monster density, and progression still reward speed above everything else, players will optimize toward speed. That isn’t the community “not letting Jonathan cook.” It’s the incentive structure doing exactly what it was built to do.

Slow and methodical combat does not really work with an RNG lottery reward structure. The moment rewards depend heavily on repeated pulls of the slot machine, players are pushed to increase the number of pulls per hour. That means faster clears, bigger density, stricter filters, and less patience for deliberate combat.

I completely agree, you perfectly expressed what i've always thought about the loot system in poe 2 in a very concise way

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Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

Well, it is still the community. Because they can always make combat slow no matter what loot system is there.

I don't think that's true personally, in general, ppl really like to feel like they're productive and optimal, but like Cyranis said, the only optimal way to play and progress in poe 2 is by pulling the slot machine lever as many times as you can, aka "gotta go fast"

Not every loot system is the same though, in mmos for example there are a lot of time limited events where loot can only be obtained during specific period of times like dungeons/raids.

I don't think poe 2 needs to go that far tbh, but i think that a loot system similar to a game like the division 2 would fit nicely in a more deliberate arpg like poe 2 was supposed to be, with some adjustments ofc

If i were to compare both systems, in poe 2 when you pull the lever you either gain 0 or you gain 100

In the division 2 when you pull the lever the rewards vary from 1 to 5, it's meant to be slower but constant, but there are rare moments where you can gain 25, 50 or 100 too, and it's in your interest as the end objective to collect as many 100 as you can, this is used to min-max your character basically

I guess it's hard to imagine if you never played TD2 but i believe part of the answer is there, in summary, GGG can't expect a different result when they copied and pasted a almost everything from poe 1. From loot to monster mods, AI, etc.

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Yrto#6442 wrote:

You should check out No Rest for the Wicked if you don't know about it. It seems to have achieved the blend of Elden Ring and ARPG that Jonathan was trying to go for.

Thanks, I plan to for sure, but going to exercise more patience than I did with PoE2 and wait till it's actually done. PoE2 is the first game I've ever tried while it was in early access. Won't make that mistake again.

Not a platform gamer at all, but played Ori and the Will of the Wisps and really really enjoyed it, such a great game. Won't be surprised if NRFTW is top notch too.

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In the recent Q&A I was floored to find out that the average mapping time was 15 minutes. In 0.4 I was blasting t14 maps within a week by playing Oracle. It caused me to think about how much of a bubble we are in if the average player who made it to maps is taking that long, what percentage of players even make it to Act 4, and is that an indicator that the combat has failed. Then I remembered two things; the constant begging for help with Jamanra, and the fact that I can solo him with a jank, Quin tier leveling Chronomancer build even if it took 20 minutes in 0.1.

I tend to believe the combat hasn't inherently failed to be engaging for either DEX or INT players. The example I gave in the previous paragraph shows how I, with maxed DEX could overcome a zero INT situation. The other players that need help with Jamanra are legitimately using INT to overcome a DEX (skill) issue. As I played more the scale naturally slides more to INT as I made better builds and internalized most enemy types and their attacks reducing my need to rely on DEX.

If I were to look at Elden Ring and other Fromsoft games there would be clear parallels. You can trivialize fights by leveling, following guides, and summoning. Or you could just lock in and maybe try experimenting with your approach to combat. (Both of which are Dev intended ways of playing)

But the combat in POE2 has failed because the INT (knowledge) of the players has overpowered the need to engage in it? But most players who get to that point already engaged with it and mastered it. How long do you need to keep learning new stuff? Are you just looking at the game through the lens of a loot simulator, in a bubble? Are you ignoring a majority of the players who see beating Viper as an actual achievement?

Are there pain points, yes. Some bosses and mobs are straight trash, too fast with misleading or deceptive attacks. But the game being POE1.5 or the vision being dead? Not even close in my eyes.

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Cicsero#2961 wrote:

In the recent Q&A I was floored to find out that the average mapping time was 15 minutes.

the average being 15 mins also means that a LOT of people are taking a LOT longer.