"The motivation there is trying to make combat as good as possible" - Chris Wilson

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Groveski28#7907 wrote:

Yea the combat was way more fun in .1 and the more tactical skill combat was what drew me to POE2 in the first place. Now its just turning into a zoomfest like every other ARPG with meaningless bloated ground loot even with a loot filter.

Try using poe2filter, is the best loot filter available for poe 2 imo

I know this isn't ideal but at very least this is something we can fix it ourselves

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Groveski28#7907 wrote:

Yea the combat was way more fun in .1 and the more tactical skill combat was what drew me to POE2 in the first place. Now its just turning into a zoomfest like every other ARPG with meaningless bloated ground loot even with a loot filter.

Ah yes the "tactical combat" of 0.1, where every attack build was using herald chaining tech to blow up the entire screen or broken archmage spark which cover the entire screen in projectiles.
The game mostly felt harder because the gear during campaign sucked and everyone had no experience with anything.

Youre trying to rewrite the past to support your narrative.

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The game mostly felt harder because the gear during campaign sucked

It sucked because they wanted it to be harder and more slow and more tactical.

It sucked because the systems where incomplete or undercooked, but if it makes you sleep better at night...

The fact remains that once you got to act4 cruel difficulty, you were able to blow up a screen of monsters with herald chaining or armour explosion. The narrative of tactical combat in 0.1 is a lie.

True it is a lie hah. Other than campaign which was just because of not having loot, the game always had zoom. Temporalis autobombers have always been a thing.

I do find this topic interesting. I don't believe is in bad faith at all. But it is interesting that topics from before PoE2 were made a separate game don't get referenced in this conversation. If they are brought up, it's accompanied with something along the lines of "yeah but they changed their minds." Yet without an equal acknowledgement that since these quotes they may very well have changed their minds again. Or the more likely option that what they meant was never the soulsborne style that people read into a couple side references. Even when they said they were inspired by Elden Ring they explicitly said with PoE DNA. Which part of the PoE DNA isn't a zoomy game?

Combat in Path of Exile 2 is at a cross-roads described by Jonathan Rogers as being:

"Incredibly tricky to split the difference, just incredibly tricky," regarding balancing the game for players who want to slide through combat at blazing speeds and players who want an uphill battle.

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/path-of-exile-2-director-is-on-a-quest-to-make-the-perfect-action-rpg-and-isnt-afraid-to-borrow-from-path-of-exile-1-to-pull-it-off/

I would imagine that this is either the #1 or #2 problem they have been trying to solve. I would further imagine that this is the "Holy Grail" for Mr. Jonathan Rogers as combat is a key goal.

Ultimately, as I see it, the question he is being asked is: Can you perfectly balance the playing styles of both INT & DEX players within the same game?

Intuitively, it doesn't seem like it although "on the road to perfection you find greatness". Maybe they can get close albeit the system leans one direction or the other.

While we're most likely not going to solve this difficult problem ourselves, I saw an interview with Chris & Jonathan where they mentioned they rather have negative feedback versus none. Also, they don't view adopting players solutions as "concessions" as that implies an "us" vs "them" mentality and, in reality, we are all on the same side: Trying to make the game better.

HOWEVER, they approach feedback through inversion (one of my favorite investors Charlie Munger's technique): They ignore the solution offered by the players and focus on what problem the player is trying to describe. Sometimes the solution marries up to theirs, sometimes not. Interestingly, Chris defined himself as a "Character Power Fantasy" player ("Int" player). Seems like Jonathan is a "Player Power Fantasy" ("Dex" player).

Edit, just a brainstorm session for myself:
Should classes be designed specifically for a "Dex" player while others designed specifically for an "Int" player? Does the Int style lend itself to zooming while Dex is the more uphill challenge? Do Dex characters get more options when it comes to strafing, dodge/roll, jump, etc. versus the Int characters? If a system could be developed, should Dex characters get the nod in power advantage due to hands-on play?

Just rewatched some of the interview, OP conveniently left out some important information at the end because it doesnt support his narrative:

"

Chris Wilson: I think that PoE 2 has grown into is far bigger than we, I mean both games grew into far bigger than we imagined, but PoE 2 has such a unique identity of itself. You know, it could have easily been PoE 1 with better graphics and different sockets, but then you made something that feels like a very modern action RPG in a really good way.

Really makes you think.

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600lbpanther#3839 wrote:

Edit, just a brainstorm session for myself:
Should classes be designed specifically for a "Dex" player while others designed specifically for an "Int" player? Does the Int style lend itself to zooming while Dex is the more uphill challenge? Do Dex characters get more options when it comes to strafing, dodge/roll, jump, etc. versus the Int characters? If a system could be developed, should Dex characters get the nod in power advantage due to hands-on play?

If you don't mind my intromission, i personally think that focusing on one or the other isn't good for any modern rpg

Imo the ideal model should be a hybrid system, not 50% int and 50% dex, but something like 60~70% dex and 30~40% int

Like int can be solved with stuff like online guides nowadays, and full dex can get tiring eventually, giving the impression of no sense of character progression when every encounter needs precise timing and multiple combos

To me poe 2 feels like 75% int and 25% dex, stuff like dodge roll or "weighty" attacks only really works in the campaign bcs of the way end game mechanics, monster mods, etc, are designed

And with the new ritual rework where you can spawn 5 or 6 bosses inside a ritual, it'll basically become an int game just like poe 1, because there's not going to be any space left for mechanical skill, it's literally just a stat check to see how fast you can kill the bosses, or how you can stack multiple recovery mechanics on top of each other like the new runes, leech, recoup, multiple dmg mitigation loops, etc

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Argonlo#6237 wrote:

Just rewatched some of the interview, OP conveniently left out some important information at the end because it doesnt support his narrative:

"

Chris Wilson: I think that PoE 2 has grown into is far bigger than we, I mean both games grew into far bigger than we imagined, but PoE 2 has such a unique identity of itself. You know, it could have easily been PoE 1 with better graphics and different sockets, but then you made something that feels like a very modern action RPG in a really good way.

Really makes you think.

What? 😂
How does that change anything? You thought you had a gotcha moment with that somehow?

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Vyend#2601 wrote:

To me poe 2 feels like 75% int and 25% dex, stuff like dodge roll or "weighty" attacks only really works in the campaign bcs of the way end game mechanics, monster mods, etc, are designed

And with the new ritual rework where you can spawn 5 or 6 bosses inside a ritual, it'll basically become an int game just like poe 1, because there's not going to be any space left for mechanical skill, it's literally just a stat check to see how fast you can kill the bosses, or how you can stack multiple recovery mechanics on top of each other like the new runes, leech, recoup, multiple dmg mitigation loops, etc

Exactly, and the more bloated and convoluted the stat check requirements become, the less likely it is for most people to engage with the int aspects of it (and instead follow guides blindly) or stick with the game itself too. It gets progressively more overwhelming and less rewarding, especially when one gives up on trying to craft a build themselves.

What exactly will most people feel a sense of accomplishment with when they end up outsourcing the int and no dex to speak of? Will they feel amazing because they followed a build guide? lol