Armour Stacker, ES Stacker etc. need to be removed from the Game - Change my Mind

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

If they refuse to remove them, they should add caps, as was suggested earlier. .

I´m not against removing or capping stacker in this game but they can´t just remove those archtypes without giving us new things to build and scale. If we don´t have them we will reach a wall again in absolute endgame content and I don´t like that.

And unless they don´t nerf monster power without nerfing also endgame farms I don´t see how we lose stacker builds tbh. And since we got so much powercreep in this game its not an easy problem to solve anymore.

I don't think they should be removed but I do agree that the power level there is not balanced in any way and they should take that in to account.

It was ok before they bumped the max es and max life items could give in the last patch. Nothing inherently changed about the trickster between patches except the new base items that gave a massive bump to the ES they could reach. They just never balanced the skills that converted that to damage.

Last league I home cooked a weird energy blade inquisitor and after 100's of hours and a lot of investment I managed to clear all ubers and my build was still only a fraction of the power of the tricksters. Good enough but not capable of afk'ing pinnacle content.

Goes to show that you can allow it to exist as long as the balance is ok. Just make people use energy blade if they want to go ES stacking and remove ephemereal edge. Instantly those builds lose 45% of their EHP and are still strong enough to clear everything in the game with ease. It is overtuned, no denying it.

I think anyone should be able to realize that adding new base items that massively increase EHP without looking at damage that scales off of that HP/ES was an oversight and should be looked at.

Does power level actually matter anymore? The whole games a balance clown fiesta we may as well have as many avenues for players to go down as possible rather than trying to balance things - and I say this as someone who vastly preferred tighter values in earlier content.

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Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

Does power level actually matter anymore?

While I get your view on things, it still matters. Injecting defense into a build that also directly scales your damage allows you to farm harder content faster. The snowballing effect from this is just insane. Folks like to mention how expensive those builds can get, while at the same time completely neglecting the fact that that kind of currency had to come from somewhere in the first place.

I disagree. To begin with, unless something is doing serious damage to the game/game balance it shouldn't be removed. And in my opinion, stackers aren't even an issue. They provide crazy power on crazy budget and are complete trash below that. You won't be getting anywhere as an ES stacker with 10k ES, that much isn't even a suitable defense in modern POE. Same with armour stackers needing values in the millions or stat stackers needing 3k+ of their stat which is only doable with crazy expensive gear. Not to mention that in some cases, like str stackers, they aren't even good defensively. Most of them are glass cannons.

Having chase builds in the game is a good thing. I'd only consider it a problem if there was content in the game that required these kind of builds but given how you can do t17 and ubers with a 20 div trash skill builds nowadays that's hardly the case. Those builds have no real purpose in the game aside from bragging rights. If all you want is to make the game trivial there are cheaper ways to do so.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

You won't be getting anywhere as an ES stacker with 10k ES, that much isn't even a suitable defense in modern POE. Same with armour stackers needing values in the millions or stat stackers needing 3k+ of their stat which is only doable with crazy expensive gear. Not to mention that in some cases, like str stackers, they aren't even good defensively. Most of them are glass cannons.

Well, that's just not true at all. You need a mere 450k Armour with a single Replica Dreamfeather to get 1000% increased Attack Damage.

PoB (not mine): https://pobb.in/hFOyRbZj8Hyo

You can make a build with ~3k Life on a budget that can tank most things in the game. However, those are highly specialized and do not have the advantage of dealing a ton of damage on top. Stackers circumvent that.

As for the other statements you made, I can't find the reddit post from a few weeks ago disproving every single thing you just said. I'm currently busy, but maybe I can find it later.

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Impiousbe#0903 wrote:

I don't think they should be removed but I do agree that the power level there is not balanced in any way and they should take that in to account.

It was ok before they bumped the max es and max life items could give in the last patch. Nothing inherently changed about the trickster between patches except the new base items that gave a massive bump to the ES they could reach. They just never balanced the skills that converted that to damage.

Last league I home cooked a weird energy blade inquisitor and after 100's of hours and a lot of investment I managed to clear all ubers and my build was still only a fraction of the power of the tricksters. Good enough but not capable of afk'ing pinnacle content.

Goes to show that you can allow it to exist as long as the balance is ok. Just make people use energy blade if they want to go ES stacking and remove ephemereal edge. Instantly those builds lose 45% of their EHP and are still strong enough to clear everything in the game with ease. It is overtuned, no denying it.

I think anyone should be able to realize that adding new base items that massively increase EHP without looking at damage that scales off of that HP/ES was an oversight and should be looked at.

u trolling right energy blade is like the most broken shit in the game for both melee and casters

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

You won't be getting anywhere as an ES stacker with 10k ES, that much isn't even a suitable defense in modern POE. Same with armour stackers needing values in the millions or stat stackers needing 3k+ of their stat which is only doable with crazy expensive gear. Not to mention that in some cases, like str stackers, they aren't even good defensively. Most of them are glass cannons.

Well, that's just not true at all. You need a mere 450k Armour with a single Replica Dreamfeather to get 1000% increased Attack Damage.

PoB (not mine): https://pobb.in/hFOyRbZj8Hyo

You can make a build with ~3k Life on a budget that can tank most things in the game. However, those are highly specialized and do not have the advantage of dealing a ton of damage on top. Stackers circumvent that.

As for the other statements you made, I can't find the reddit post from a few weeks ago disproving every single thing you just said. I'm currently busy, but maybe I can find it later.

So what? 1000% increased attack damage doesn't necessarily mean you have good dps overall. With low budget you'll have to give up on lots of other stats to get that much armour which will come back to bite you elsewhere. Armour stacking starts getting good once you have a few mirrors to throw around. Prior to that it's going to be mediocre at best.

Surviving most things in the game doesn't require some specialized low dps builds. Any well balanced build can do so and still have tens of millions of dps. The only things my characters typically can't survive are memory games, sirus meteors and shit like that i.e stuff you are not supposed to tank. Almost everything below that is tankable by default as far as i am concerned on just about any build i make.

Honestly, don't bother finding reddit posts if you want to convince me of something. I am fairly active on the POEbuilds subreddit and frankly 90% of the people there are clueless to a degree where they fail DESPITE copying meta builds. During the first weeks it was literally exploding with posts from people who failed to get anywhere after copying those VFoS guides for league start. Posts from those kinds of people aren't going to convince me of anything and are utterly unsuitable to prove anything as far as i am concerned.

In the first place, i've only posted my view on the matter. You are free to disagree. I won't bother to try and convince you otherwise. I generally base my opinions on my own experience, i care very little for all that meta talk that the rest of the community is obsessed with. I also care very little for 50 mirror builds doing 1 billion dps when i can take a 50 div build and reduce ubers to a complete joke. To me there is literally no reason to even bother with the former. There is little to no practical difference between killing a boss in 2-3 sec and doing so in 0,001 sec. It's just poe warriors bragging with big numbers.

/edit back home now and checked your POB and honestly, is that it? 20 mio dps and ~100k max hits. That's like basic endgame stats for any decent build and can be achieved in god knows how many ways, it's nothing special. Also, that build has nearly 800k armour, not 450 and it still has such low stats. It pretty much proves what i said. You'll need multiple times that amount of armour before it gets even remotely impressive be it defensively or offensively.

I think it all boils down to what kind of game we want.

If we take... Lets say the 10 best archetypes for the last three leagues; how many percent of those are, in some way, stacking, be that ES (because it also gives them offense), an attribute, a charge, mana, health or whatever. Take your answer to that question and ask yourself if that is an healthy diversity at the top end? If your answer is "yes", fine - you are totally OK with the fact that certain builds are "meant" to be scaled further than others. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm a naive utopist, and want all builds to have the ability to be scaled similarly without resorting to "one" tool.

RMT needs to be removed from the game, people buy builds buy mirror gear all for real money, change my mind.

Currently, if you are having a strong character and doing solid 35d/hr strategy, you will get yourself a mirror in 60+ hours. (Mirror price by those 60 hours will increase on 200-500divs)

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