Armour Stacker, ES Stacker etc. need to be removed from the Game - Change my Mind

i mean....most stackers are entirely propped up by one item. Isn't that sort of the point?

One enabling item, and all the rest to support it. AKA.....a build-enabling item.

They really aren't if you think about it and not to the extent that replica dreamfeather runs armour stackers :p but yes it is a build enabling item.

To elaborate strength stackers for example have a great many ways you can play them, replica alberons is where most people go because its the strongest but there are plenty of methods to get very high mileage out of strength stacking.

Meanwhile GGG gut plenty of things we could stack by writing "up to" on them. It isn't very consistent and i've found it puzzling over the years.

Again i personally think armour stackers are fine though its just trickster thats got out of hand with GGG's age old ES problem - if damage values are based around 5-6k life its pretty easy to break everything when you have 25k instead.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Why does replica dreamfeather get called out especially, when we have replica alberon / Ephemeral Edge / Omni / etc. And then the more expensive charge stackers that basically rely entirely on either godly rings and/or Ralakesh.

No one here did but you. If you read the OP, you will see that I was bashing all of those. It should be a fair playground for everyone, not only gold showers for those who invest early and scale the entire time as they are playing.

I used the term "snowballing" in one of my replies for good reason. It's a term often used specifically in conjunction with balancing concerns. That's why in games like Dota 2 or League of Legends you will see "early meta adjustments", in short, nerfs to early game scaling of some heroes/champions if they were snowballing too hard and the average win rate was too high. Often a direct indicator how OP something is.

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Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

They really aren't if you think about it and not to the extent that replica dreamfeather runs armour stackers :p but yes it is a build enabling item.

I mean....not really though. Ephemeral Edge runs 99.9% of ES stacking builds. Ralakesh runs 99.9% of charge stacking. +1 charge dual rings (and the cold mod) are musts for frenzy charge stacking. Omni runs all-stat stacking. Iron Commander runs dex stacking, etc. Brutus runs all fire strength stacking. Replica Alberon runs ALL strength chaos stacking. It's no different.

For every single type of stacking, there exists a singular (or maybe max 2) items that we are talking about that enable them to go through the roof. Replica Dream is no different in that regard; it just happens to be the only option for armour stackers. Which only means we should get more, not gut the one that exists simply because it exists.

I do totally understand you and I agree on stackers in general, but I think its disingenuous to say that Replica Dreamfeather is a standout stacker enabling item when you compare it to other stacker enabling items. It does the same thing that at least 5 other weapons do off the top of my head. And actually, since its significantly harder to scale armour to the levels needed to truly maximize it....it does it somewhat worse than the other items like Brutus and Edge.

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Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

Again i personally think armour stackers are fine though its just trickster thats got out of hand with GGG's age old ES problem - if damage values are based around 5-6k life its pretty easy to break everything when you have 25k instead.

Armour stackers aren't just stacking Armour, though. Looking at the top end on PoeNinja, which are obviously gonna be mega expensive but that isn't the point, you are looking at 4M Armour and +1200% Fire Resistance in some cases. On top of 90% max res with Mageblood, CI and several hundred million of DPS.

While I don't disagree that "pinnacle builds" should be allowed to exist, don't you think this is a bit beyond ridiculous? I like a good tank as much as the next guy, but this is getting dumb.

Edit: I guess my point is, it's not difficult to make a tank build for cheap, but you are usually trading that for damage. Stackers got it all. Items like that don't belong in the game, as GGG will always have to balance around them.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

Armour stackers aren't just stacking Armour, though. Looking at the top end on PoeNinja, which are obviously gonna be mega expensive but that isn't the point, you are looking at 4M Armour and +1200% Fire Resistance in some cases. On top of 90% max res with Mageblood, CI and several hundred million of DPS.

While I don't disagree that "pinnacle builds" should be allowed to exist, don't you think this is a bit beyond ridiculous? I like a good tank as much as the next guy, but this is getting dumb.

Yes.....because thats how its done. That's how all stacking is done. They stack that way because its impossible to stack armor to the levels needed for it to actually become the "godly" (or even usable) build. The fact that they HAVE to stack so many things like that to make it work is what makes the build HARDER to put together.

It's not ridiculous at all.

Take this example:
What is the goal for your build? "I want to deal as much damage as I can"
What are you going to do? Stack everything I possibly can to get as much damage as possible

That is the game. The goal of every build. You seem to have a problem because its defense that is being stacked.....but thats where the COST of such a build comes into play. How many players across all of PoE has access to the mirrors required to make a build like an armor stacker function?

And those numbers you just rattled off is an even smaller subset of armour stackers that have perfect items in every slot. Multi-mirror items in each and every piece of gear. At that level of investment.....you bet your ass that build should be nigh-unkillable and be dealing the MOST damage you possibly can. There is literally nowhere else to go at that point. You have won the game.

And an armour stacker, even at that level, has SO MANY WEAKNESSES its almost not even worth it to pour in the currency. The numbers that have you so scared are meaningless to so many different mods, and some mods that can be random occurrences on rare mobs too.

In my opinion, your criticisms are merely on the surface and fail to take into account a heck of a lot of data about those builds you criticize.


I bet you could name your favorite build, no matter what it is, and I can write this exact same thread opposing it and you'd be on the reverse side of the argument. Because its always going to be the same argument when you are looking at a perfect, multi-mirror build that performs at expectations for its investment.

The problem isn't the top end....which nearly all stackers fall into. You are PAYING for that power, through time and energy and cost. Those builds DESERVE the power they have. The problems are the builds significantly further below them, yet perform almost as well. Things like old-school tornado shot "delete entire maps before you see any monsters on a budget" stuff.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It's not ridiculous at all.

It is, though. It goes directly against GGG's design philosophy they have talked about over the years. How everything needs some sort of tradeoff to make it interesting, while at the same time keeping things from becoming too powerful.

I feel we have strayed far from those days. Replica Alberon's was a mistake, and so were most if not all of those items. Back in the day, the stacking meta was done with stat sticks and stuff like this:

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Doon_Cuebiyari
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Brutus%27_Lead_Sprinkler
https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Nebuloch

Even then, Brutus' Lead Sprinkler and Nebuloch builds were already warping the game. In case you need a reminder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oc__Q_4UVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MoN3p_3hQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agg_X85WlBI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrNNo3wnApc

Nope I remember all those and never once did I feel they were a mistake. It was a way to make a build.

Just like any other item that exists in the game.

It warped nothing in my eyes. The only thing that happened was, at times, they were imbalanced and needed a pass.


The tradeoff? There is a MASSIVE tradeoff. You are forced to use a singular item, and you are forced to spend oodles and oodles of $$$$ making the build. How much more of a tradeoff can you get? The build literally can't be done in SSF because of the tradeoff. It can't even be done by the vast majority in softcore trade.

If cost doesn't represent a tradeoff to you....we are playing two very different games here.


"While at the same time keeping things from becoming too powerful".....this has never EVER been true in the entire existence of PoE. Not once. We had cast on critical strike, we had shotgunning, we had minions, we had aura-stacking (still do ofc), we had chin sol barrage, we had <insert flavor of the league here>. It has NEVER been a goal of GGG to cap down on things "becoming too powerful". Their goal was making sure things weren't too powerful......for too little investment. Simple as that.

Stackers invest a LOT. In every piece of gear. It is a very hard thing to accomplish at the level you cherry-picked off poe ninja, and describe in these posts. You can accomplish "almost as much" on a shoestring with different builds and non-stackers, but the TRADEOFF of spending soooooo much on one build is that it does a lot of things very well to the point of perfectly.

Which is EXACTLY how a loot-based game should operate: more time/cost = better gear = better build. Perfect gear = perfect build. That is what we have here. It ONLY out-performs when the investment also out-performs. By a large margin.



I could easily say "All ranged skills need to be removed from the game" in defense of melee and follow the same pattern of your arguments here, right down to the whole "GGG game philosophy" angle.....and it would all fit perfectly.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The build literally can't be done in SSF because of the tradeoff. It can't even be done by the vast majority in softcore trade.

https://poe.ninja/builds/mercenarieshcssf/?items=Ephemeral+Edge
https://poe.ninja/builds/mercenariesssf/?items=Ephemeral+Edge

https://poe.ninja/builds/mercenariesssf/?items=Replica+Dreamfeather
https://poe.ninja/builds/mercenarieshcssf/?items=Replica+Dreamfeather

https://poe.ninja/builds/mercenariesssf/?items=Replica+Alberon%27s+Warpath
https://poe.ninja/builds/mercenarieshcssf/?items=Replica+Alberon%27s+Warpath


https://poe.ninja/builds/settlershcssf/?items=Ephemeral+Edge
https://poe.ninja/builds/settlersssf/?items=Ephemeral+Edge

https://poe.ninja/builds/settlersssf/?items=Replica+Dreamfeather
https://poe.ninja/builds/settlershcssf/?items=Replica+Dreamfeather

https://poe.ninja/builds/settlersssf/?items=Replica+Alberon%27s+Warpath
https://poe.ninja/builds/settlershcssf/?items=Replica+Alberon%27s+Warpath

And those are just the usual offenders that are public (!). There are more if you really went looking.

Edit:

And I do think you are vastly missing the point, as indicated by your quick rage edits you tend to do. The point is not that they are expensive at the top end, the point is that they are overall too powerful. Having 1 scaling vector that scales both offense and defense is a balancing nightmare that shouldn't even be in the game. Simple as.

^lol.....LOOK at the armor stacking builds you linked. The HC SSF ones are BARELY better than any other normal build you can make. Thanks for proving exactly what I said. Where are your 4 million armour / immortal / 100million damage builds huh?

And the ones at the tippy tippy top of that HC? Representing the absolute best HC players there are? They are still pretty darn "normal" in damage and defense. In fact, probably less in both than other typical HC builds BECAUSE they can't bankroll them the way they need to.

I already said that Ephemeral Edge ES stacking is one that I think needs to be rebalanced because its too easily done.



I didn't miss any point you made.....you are just making a very poor argument and ignoring the costs associated because it doesn't fit the narrative. As I said a few times, I can make the exact same argument using every single thing you have said in this thread against pretty much any build.

Your big hangup is this whole stacking defense to get offense thing. That's it. And you seem to think for some reason its imbalancing the game.

It doesn't.....precisely because those builds only exist at the tippy top end of ALL possible builds. It is far easier, far cheaper, to stack ALL damage and just blink everything out of existence before it touches you. Rendering all defense immaterial. Is that fair for the game? Because that is how the game has operated for probably 90% of its lifetime. Where were all your posts calling for that stuff to be erased from the game for being unfair and against GGG's philosophy?