Petition to abandon T17

+1, I never run T17, layout is annoying, mods are annoying. Just make them unique and make every map possible to become T17.

T17 are very, very build limiting

before we start - please, stop with this 'good build' or 'skill issue' ok? build templates are there for anyone to take. it is not a question of skill anymore.



if the endgame goal is to touch T17 in any meaningful way other than 'complete one for map slot' you HAVE to build around it from the start, eliminating choices that are prone to T17 bs mod pool

while some are 'just' damage/mitigation checks that you can out-gear in somewhat. there is also a set of mods that you either cannot mitigate in any way OR there are like 2 options to do so - namely all action-speed modifiers

if your build (or your merc in this league) doesnt offer you action-speed reduction protection - you are f..

so you build around these mods - instead of building character you want, you have to adjust to a set of bs mods. mercs made that easier (albeit somehow expensive) with Garb of Ephemeral but that only moved problem from pigeonholing character into pigeonholing merc setup (and once your merc dies.. you wont complete that map)


T17 might have been ok if this - small - subset of absolutely build-wrecking mods was eliminated OR these mods were universally penalising (like the infamous 'every 10 seconds dont deal damage for 3')

because any design where some extreme penalties exist BUT one or two narrow solutions exist causes exactly what happens now - you either play a build that can ignore these extremes or you dont play T17 at all


the final problem are the rewards. these extreme-but-cheesable mods have horrendous loot multipliers. so there is a serious incentive to roll and ignore them. regular builds (builds that otherwise blink ubers, afk in simus etc) cannot complete these mods and are a) forced to waste LOTS of chaos b) skip on juicy juicy multipliers

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sidtherat#1310 wrote:

the final problem are the rewards. these extreme-but-cheesable mods have horrendous loot multipliers. so there is a serious incentive to roll and ignore them. regular builds (builds that otherwise blink ubers, afk in simus etc) cannot complete these mods and are a) forced to waste LOTS of chaos b) skip on juicy juicy multipliers

Almost all of the awful modifiers don't provide special loot multipliers other than regular quant/rarity/packsize and packsize was nerfed/made less mandatory this league. You'd at most skip 3 modifiers out of these 23 modifiers if you're capable of "blinking ubers".



https://poedb.tw/us/Maps_uber_tier

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sidtherat#1310 wrote:

T17 are very, very build limiting

before we start - please, stop with this 'good build' or 'skill issue' ok? build templates are there for anyone to take. it is not a question of skill anymore.



if the endgame goal is to touch T17 in any meaningful way other than 'complete one for map slot' you HAVE to build around it from the start, eliminating choices that are prone to T17 bs mod pool

T17s aren’t nearly as build-limiting as some make them out to be. Dangerous map mods have existed since maps were introduced years ago, this is nothing new. The solution’s always been the same, build around problems or just roll past them. Basic stuff.

What T17s really do is highlight the difference between an actually optimized build and a lazy, low-effort setup that only survives in T16 thanks to years of power creep. If your build crumbles to map mods or you refuse to reroll maps like we’ve always done, that’s not a content issue, that’s a you issue.

Almost any build archetype can handle T17s with some basic planning. The only ones complaining are the same people who got used to coasting through endgame with no punishments, and now can’t handle being asked to think just a little bit more.
In the end it's just really nothing but a skill issue.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

Almost any build archetype can handle T17s with some basic planning. The only ones complaining are the same people who got used to coasting through endgame with no punishments, and now can’t handle being asked to think just a little bit more.
In the end it's just really nothing but a skill issue.

Nobody is struggling buddy. People are just bored how on the rails this design is.
It's the same complain as with skill design in PoE2. It brings literally nothing to the game, except annoyance.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

"

sidtherat#1310 wrote:

T17 are very, very build limiting

before we start - please, stop with this 'good build' or 'skill issue' ok? build templates are there for anyone to take. it is not a question of skill anymore.



if the endgame goal is to touch T17 in any meaningful way other than 'complete one for map slot' you HAVE to build around it from the start, eliminating choices that are prone to T17 bs mod pool

T17s aren’t nearly as build-limiting as some make them out to be. Dangerous map mods have existed since maps were introduced years ago, this is nothing new. The solution’s always been the same, build around problems or just roll past them. Basic stuff.

What T17s really do is highlight the difference between an actually optimized build and a lazy, low-effort setup that only survives in T16 thanks to years of power creep. If your build crumbles to map mods or you refuse to reroll maps like we’ve always done, that’s not a content issue, that’s a you issue.

Almost any build archetype can handle T17s with some basic planning. The only ones complaining are the same people who got used to coasting through endgame with no punishments, and now can’t handle being asked to think just a little bit more.
In the end it's just really nothing but a skill issue.

expect this type of 'its a you problem', asked to refrain from it. got it anyway, cool

it is not a 'you' problem. it is a game turns into railroad simulator problem

'any archetype' is BOLLOCKS :) and if you dont know it, maybe try some other builds - copying sure-fire might warp your perspective

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Almost all of the awful modifiers don't provide special loot multipliers other than regular quant/rarity/packsize and packsize was nerfed/made less mandatory this league. You'd at most skip 3 modifiers out of these 23 modifiers if you're capable of "blinking ubers".

my favourite '5% action slow' grants ~70% IIR, it is the highest(?) IIR modifier in the game. it prints uniques and if you seriously farm for T0, you kinda want it. and if you want it, you know that your build choices are as broad and diverse as if you were a Sanctum runner

it might have been good idea on Sanctum or other niche/specialised content (like Valdos) - but on a typical endgame content (maps that drop uber frags) mods like these are just bad. and re-rolling them is a solution that adds nothing to the game. it is a design decision that puts 'fun' in the last place

-1,
I like the idea having noticeably more difficult and rewarding map (not boss encounter).
Regular "t16 alch and go" both quite easy and unrewarding (you can't get even few chaoses from it).

Even though i usually sell those t17, because they cost a lot and i can't run it myself. But still, having some challenge is cool. Maybe slightly increase drop rate and nerf some crazy mods, so i can run them without stressing too much if i fail, but definitely not removing them.

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

-1,
I like the idea having noticeably more difficult and rewarding map (not boss encounter).
Regular "t16 alch and go" both quite easy and unrewarding (you can't get even few chaoses from it).

Even though i usually sell those t17, because they cost a lot and i can't run it myself. But still, having some challenge is cool. Maybe slightly increase drop rate and nerf some crazy mods, so i can run them without stressing too much if i fail, but definitely not removing them.

Idea is good, but execution is awful. That's the whole point.

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Dxt44#4050 wrote:

Idea is good, but execution is awful. That's the whole point.

This screenshot demonstrate nothing without context. I just get voidstones from Maven and UberElder. I play quite slowly. Ofc i don't trying T17 in this league. But in future i want such opportunity.

Is there are a huge gap between t16 and t17? Yes
Is it very bad? I don't think so (especially we have corrupted 8 mod in between)

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felix0808#2550 wrote:

Is it very bad? I don't think so

The problem is that you're approaching this in a very subjective way, based on your own experience with the builds you've played. It's like someone who started with Holy Relic of Conviction and doesn't even need to identify map mods, then goes on the forum and doesn't see any issues with the design of those mods.