Dear GGG..

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

So, you are saying that GGG is the same size as Blizzard?

I really can't believe this discussion is taking place...

Clearly you have no understanding of statistics in the slightest. The size doesn't matter.....the RATIO is what matters.

The RATIO of PoE players who use the client vs steam is likely the SAME as the RATIO of those who play (especially) D4 through battle.net vs steam.

There is absolutely zero reason to think this wouldn't be the case, regardless of "size". In fact, the newer the game, the MORE likely it is that steam harbors a greater percentage of the players than older titles simply because steam is the far more popular ubiquitous game client. It's the sole reason blizzard even started offering their games on steam, and the steam deck came into existence.

Literally the only person that wouldn't know this just from sheer common knowledge or common sense....is someone with zero understanding of statistics.

Which is clear from your previous posts.

Of course, it's me who has a lack of understanding. I'm the one here saying that battle.net, which at last report had 26 Million active users per month, is equal to the 500k (at launch, probably under 200k now, too) GGG client.

The vast majority of people on D4 are probably still playing on battle.net, especially considering that's where it launched. And, we don't have those stats. Really, we don't have GGG's stats either, so it's all just guesstimation.

Which, was precisely my point. To try to pass off what this guy was trying to pass off, was just rubbish. But, fanboys will worship, I suppose.

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

Of course, it's me who has a lack of understanding. I'm the one here saying that battle.net, which at last report had 26 Million active users per month, is equal to the 500k (at launch, probably under 200k now, too) GGG client.

The vast majority of people on D4 are probably still playing on battle.net, especially considering that's where it launched. And, we don't have those stats. Really, we don't have GGG's stats either, so it's all just guesstimation.

Which, was precisely my point. To try to pass off what this guy was trying to pass off, was just rubbish. But, fanboys will worship, I suppose.

mmmm another post full of inaccuracies and complete lack of statistical knowledge. I literally can't go any further with you, anything I try to explain won't even get through.

Suffice to say: the steam data comparison is ABSOLUTELY an accurate comparison statistically speaking, without even a shadow of a doubt. And if you are trying to use "but....battle.net" as a reason it somehow doesn't, shows a complete lack of knowledge.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

Of course, it's me who has a lack of understanding. I'm the one here saying that battle.net, which at last report had 26 Million active users per month, is equal to the 500k (at launch, probably under 200k now, too) GGG client.

The vast majority of people on D4 are probably still playing on battle.net, especially considering that's where it launched. And, we don't have those stats. Really, we don't have GGG's stats either, so it's all just guesstimation.

Which, was precisely my point. To try to pass off what this guy was trying to pass off, was just rubbish. But, fanboys will worship, I suppose.

mmmm another post full of inaccuracies and complete lack of statistical knowledge. I literally can't go any further with you, anything I try to explain won't even get through.

Suffice to say: the steam data comparison is ABSOLUTELY an accurate comparison statistically speaking, without even a shadow of a doubt. And if you are trying to use "but....battle.net" as a reason it somehow doesn't, shows a complete lack of knowledge.

Show me the data. I've looked. It's not there.

Edit: And. Statistically speaking. At launch, D4 probably sold between 7-9 Mil units, through battle.net and console. Compared to a little over 5k peak players after steam launch. Four months later. Later peaked to 55k after Vessel of Hatred launch. Still a vastly outnumbered ratio. To compare the estimated 50/50 split that GGG has with steam to these numbers is, again, laughable.

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

Show me the data. I've looked. It's not there.

boy o boy o boy....sir, its not me who came in here doubting perfectly valid data. You did that. It's not me claiming its false because "trust me", you did that. It's not me misunderstanding how statistics work...that was you.

Burden of proof is on you buddy. I already explained to you why you were wrong. And if its true what you JUST SAID...then you should have absolutely no reason to doubt the original data either, because "you've looked", and there is nothing to prove what YOU said.


It's funny because, ultimately, all this talk of launchers and TOTAL playerbase doesn't even matter to the statistics: Steam alone provides enough of a percentage to glean patterns from the total playerbase anyway. You only need a sample size of about 1% or sometimes even less for statistically significant data.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

Show me the data. I've looked. It's not there.

boy o boy o boy....sir, its not me who came in here doubting perfectly valid data. You did that. It's not me claiming its false because "trust me", you did that. It's not me misunderstanding how statistics work...that was you.

Burden of proof is on you buddy. I already explained to you why you were wrong. And if its true what you JUST SAID...then you should have absolutely no reason to doubt the original data either, because "you've looked", and there is nothing to prove what YOU said.

I just gave you data. Check my edit above. Your turn.

I do not have the patience nor the energy to take a deep dive into explaining basic statistics right now. Perhaps another day. Sleep is a far more useful use of my time right now.

And before you go thinking you've "won" or anything that ridiculous...I'm sure while I'm away, another few people will likely point out your absurd claims too. If there's one thing you can count on in these forums, its that when someone makes egregious mistakes with numbers, claiming certainty, they are going to be put in their place pretty quick. Doubly true if that person comes in trying to discount someone else's perfectly valid data.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

I do not have the patience nor the energy to take a deep dive into explaining basic statistics right now. Perhaps another day. Sleep is a far more useful use of my time right now.

And before you go thinking you've "won" or anything that ridiculous...I'm sure while I'm away, another few people will likely point out your absurd claims too. If there's one thing you can count on in these forums, its that when someone makes egregious mistakes with numbers, claiming certainty, they are going to be put in their place pretty quick. Doubly true if that person comes in trying to discount someone else's perfectly valid data.

Perfectly valid data. Got it. Sold 7-9 million units, outside of steam, but that doesn't matter. Only steam numbers matter. Wow. Max of 55k concurrent players on steam. I guess the other sales, what, never happened? You know there is a world outside of steam and GGG, right? To try to downplay the size of one of the behemoth game company's distribution platforms, love them or hate them, is some new level of gaslighting that I haven't seen yet.

I don't have a dog in this fight other than to call out garbage when I see it, which is plentiful around here. I've been crunching all the numbers I can find, trying to correlate data that is available, and trying to come up with a fair estimate on what the ratio of steam players for D4 is compared to non-steam. The best estimates I can come up with is that there is probably about 65k players on D4 right now across all platforms. This makes the percentage of steam vs the total players around 10-15%. So, to say that the 50/50 of GGG vs steam is the same as this is just wrong. Plain and simple.

PoE2 may be above that now, but unless they do a severe and quick about-face, this game and PoE will collectively be below 65k in 2-3 weeks at the current trajectory.

Like I said in my initial post, I don't care either way. I'm just keeping my eye around here to keep up with what's going on, and I've kind of got accustomed to reading through these dumpster fire posts. I'm sure that will fade, though. But, I like digging in to find out the facts, kind of a hobby of mine. So, when I see something that is blaringly faulty, I dig into it and try to find out what's really going on. It's a good habit. I would encourage everyone to try it.

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ExaltedReapers#1455 wrote:

I'm right and I'm tired of coming here and seeing others disagree on objective truths in video games.

The endgame is too punishing, that seems to be well established in the community.

So you started with a joke? What will be your next objective truth - that atmosphere is too dark or that story should be different? Different players enjoy different things, and if PoE 1 community can't enjoy difficult games — well, they can play different games then. Majority of PoE 1 players will never like PoE 2 anyway, so they can only accept that it's not the game for their tastes.

What is objective truth is that Jonathan, main creator of PoE 2 vision, can't enjoy PoE 1 anymore, his tastes are too different from current PoE 1 players, and he is making PoE 2 according to his tastes, so there never really was reason to expect that majority of PoE 1 players will like it.

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GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

Of course, it's me who has a lack of understanding. I'm the one here saying that battle.net, which at last report had 26 Million active users per month, is equal to the 500k (at launch, probably under 200k now, too) GGG client.

I wouldn't be surprised if 20 of those millions logged for couple of minutes just for a battlepass sake and another 5 M played for couple of days.

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Suchka_777#4336 wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if 20 of those millions logged for couple of minutes just for a battlepass sake and another 5 M played for couple of days.

You may be right, unfortunately there is no way to tell. Apparently, all they need is a player to log in once during a month's time and it is recorded as a monthly active user.