Dear GGG..
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(Edited for clarity)
Teetering on whether to do this or not since I was first placed on probation, but I'm right and I'm tired of coming here and seeing others disagree on objective truths in video games. The endgame is too punishing, that seems to be well established in the community. But the general sentiment; that any changes regarding loss of XP/Maps will kill the developer's vision of the game, or ruin the playerbase’s fun, needs to be checked. Games are entertainment products first and foremost. Not challenges, not art, not scoreboards to be climbed, and especially not jobs. A game can be difficult, absolutely. Can a game be extremely punishing/unfair? Yes. But when it comes to MMOs, there has to be a balance to this, otherwise you cap your player base and limit any growth potential. We have all seen the casualization of games over the years. We have seen developers and publishers destroy some of our favorite franchises by chasing trends and the ever-elusive modern audience. World of Warcraft died when it stopped being about the average user experience and started being about high tier raiding. Overwatch was killing itself long before slapping a "2" on the end of its name by chasing the Pro MLG scene. Diablo 4, despite all of its problems, has massively broad appeal. That’s not to say that its super casual approach is what’s best for the genre, but the numbers don’t lie. They are not seeing the same numbers as POE2, but POE2 has been bleeding players since its release, and if things stay the way they are. This trend will continue. We all know about the very loud minority in this community, shouting down any dissenting opinions. Essentially shouting the age old “git gud” at every person that has anything negative to say. Let me be clear: This hostile and elitist mindset will drive everyone away from this game faster than any bad decision made on GGG’s part. Disagreeing with someone's take on what they see as a problem with the game shouldn't be done with name calling and accusations. As long as that mindset remains, the success this game is currently experiencing will be very short lived. As soon as the next game comes out that can better meet the needs of the "modern" gamer, they will move on and you will be left with a struggling, shell of a game. I can say, with full conviction and confidence, that the majority of players are not hardcore and will not put up with forced hardcore mechanics. Now, I want to clarify what I mean by that: “Forced”, as this is the more important issue than "hardcore mechanics". I don’t want to come across as the type of person who would demand FromSoft add a difficulty slider. The major difference between an MMO and singleplayer experience that has online capabilities is: When I buy Dark Souls or Elden Ring, I have a much higher degree of ownership than I do with an MMO like POE2. There are many ways to avoid the punishing difficulty in DS/ER that simply do not exist for POE. If I disagree with a mechanic in a singleplayer game, I can quite simply cheat it away. Use someone else’s save, download a mod that removes it, etc. I use that example because, obviously, that cannot happen in a game like POE, not to mention the fact that I can just go offline or into a private server and essentially do whatever I want in certain games. If I want to fight Thomas the Tank Engine as Macho Man Randy Savage, I can do that. It’s important to make a clear line between these distinctions because with games in general, everything can get very blurry, and what I'm going to say next needs this as a prerequisite. So, onto the all-important "vision" that everyone, including GGG, is going on about. To put it simply, I don't think it aligns with market expectations. I will say this may be a misalignment between what players want and what GGG expects. Players clearly dislike two very major features in endgame: Portal Waystones and XP loss on death. When it comes to the former I do agree with some players, that giving us more chance could break the in-game economy to some extent. I can also justify it in a way from a gamblers prospective. You place a coin into a slot machine and pull the lever; you may win, you may lose. However, both systems cannot exist simultaneously, as it is burning the proverbial candle (ie: player’s time) at both ends. Now my original post was about XP loss on death, I firmly believe that should be completely removed for the sake of the game’s health and longevity. Honestly, I have yet to find one good argument for it beyond “death needs to be impactful”. Listen, I'm not going hammer on the "death itself is a punishment" line of thought, although it is true as it cost the player time, but do you really not see any other punishment for death besides XP loss? It genuinely baffles me, seeing players go on and on about how XP loss is vital to the progression loop because it provides a check to the player to make them pause and figure out a different approach. While I understand that point, I can't help but think to myself: Why do you care how I overcome this challenge? Think about this critically for a minute, if level doesn't matter past 75-80, why do you think it’s such a problem if I get to level 100 through brute force? The only reason I can even fathom is it just hurts your pride, because I overcame the challenge, slightly differently than you, by bashing my head against a wall. It’s like saying I could walk from the top of Nunavut Canada to the bottom of Ushuaia South America. It’s possible yes, but completely impracticable and not something fair to ask of the best of marathon runners, let alone the average person. Everything above is not to point out the problems with players on either side of the fence, but to give perspective as to what you are asking of your average player. Most of us have jobs, families, obligations, and other games to play. It’s absurd to believe that your average player should have to figure out through trial and error, each season as things will change, or hit a wall. It’s extremely easy to get into the mindset of, just look it up, or watch guide videos made by people with more free time to dedicate to this game, rather than adapt to changes and challenges in the game. Most players don't look at live streams and dev updates, check forums for info, or watch Youtube videos related to every single game they play. Most people are just going to go with what information is provided to them within the game itself, and in its current state, that is none. Now I can forgive that, as it’s still in EA, but even if you can provide a player with all the knowledge necessary to conquer the endgame, that's still an incredibly tall ask for your average player that is just playing the game casually. I know it’s not something the players want to hear, and maybe the devs don't want to hear it either, but MMOs thrive off their casual playerbase. They are the bedrock upon which the game survives. Without them, all that’s left is a bunch of hardcore addicts chasing that dopamine rush of conquering a difficult experience. That is not enough to make a successful game. I know there are those who don't understand this, so to clarify, MMOs do better with more players. More players, means more money. Whether that's through direct player purchases, enticing investors through retention numbers, or word of mouth bringing in more customers. Ask anyone in this business about the death spiral of a game and they will tell you, customers complaining and leaving at a noticeable scale is something to be concerned about. People tend to have something of a “herd” mentality, especially gamers. This is why brand image is so important. One person telling you that the game is good may be enough to get you to look at it, but if you are then greeted by a slew of negative reviews, even if it has nothing to do with the actual game, that can absolutely result in the loss of a sale. And this can spiral very quickly. If people see that others don't like you or your product, they my choose to leave with the crowd. Lower numbers may mean others leave as well, because of the lack of people to play with, or the aversion to being on a sinking ship. Once a threshold is met, queues get longer A lack of players may mean less profit, which leads to less resources for addressing actual problems. Less and less and less until minimum product viability can no longer be achieved, then you end up with a game on life support or placed into end-of-life service. All of this could be avoided if POE2 wasn't an MMO but it is. The simplicity of the situation is: The "vision" of the game doesn't matter to the bulk of gamers, their personal enjoyment matters. That may rub you the wrong way but that's the reality of the market, and unless you’re willing to at least meet your customers halfway, you will lose. Every time. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "I am the customer therefore I am right" mindset but that's just reality, plain and simple. GGG, you have to be the ones to decide if compromising your "vision" and garnering a wider audience is worth pissing off those that are vying for a truly challenging experience. Despite whatever supporter packs, EA keys, or however many skins someone buys, by the very nature of an MMO, it’s not our game, it’s yours. I know this post wasn't very helpful in terms of actual solutions, or even pointing all of the problems that endgame has, but someone had to say this. This sentiment is consistently being drowned out by a very vocal minority of hardcore gamers and those that simply hate Diablo 4. I can very much see a future where none of the community’s valid complaints are addressed by the full release and a similar story to D4 comes to pass. Instead players reaching endgame and realizing there nothing there, they will reach endgame and find it at complete odds with anyone not willing and dedicated enough to conform to the “vision” as laid out by GGG. Players will not stay and do something they don't enjoy. Despite the mountain of evidence to show that players will complain and come back to the same slop over and over again, developers miss the fact that those games are still, at their core, trying to be fun and entertaining. Players will still stick around if the game is punishing, but if it’s being done in such a way that the fun feels sucked out of the experience, then they will move on to the next big thing. As someone who has played games for almost 20 years, I can firmly say that when my level (my only measurable form of progress between my ever-growing shorter play session) is taxed for mistakes, it does not feel fun. I do not feel challenged, I feel punished. I also see a similar sentiment when it comes to Waystones. Now I could maybe see this system working with one OR other, but definitely, wholeheartedly, undeniably, not both at the same time. Especially right when you enter the endgame. So. In conclusion, Dear GGG please fix YOUR game! Last edited by ExaltedReapers#1455 on Jan 31, 2025, 8:38:50 PM Last bumped on Feb 1, 2025, 11:11:53 PM
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If dying in the game is punishing, it must be equally fair.
It is currently very punishing, and most deaths are very unfair. This is coming from a player who absolutely loves hard games, like Dark Souls, and who has played and loved Path of Exile 1. 90% of my deaths in this game make me wonder how I even died, what killed me, or how what did hit me could possibly have instakilled me so unbelievably fast. I am not a casual player. I want a challenge. These things aren't challenging, they are cheap and eye-roll inducing. It's the equivalent of randomly getting "Rocks fall everyone dies." with no way to see it coming to avoid it. It's like having a boss instantly kill you with no telegraph. |
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" I totally agree. The reason why players like games like Dark Souls and Monster Hunter that are difficult enough is that there is interaction between players and BOSS. After being killed by BOSS, players will be amazed at the interesting moves designed by the designer. Although it is difficult to dodge, it can be resolved through various game mechanisms, such as rolling to avoid and causing BOSS stiffness through hitting combos, instead of being directly killed by BOSS's super high attack like in the later stage of POE2. The resistance limit of POE2 causes players to be killed instantly by BOSS's super high damage in the later stage, and there is no possibility of interaction at all. The only way is to choose the glass cannon to kill BOSS before BOSS kills players, so it is very boring. But the most confusing thing is that GGG did make interactive BOSS battles, but it was limited to the plot chapters in the early stage of the game. In the later stage of the game, because BOSS's damage is far higher than the player's upper limit, the interaction between players and BOSS becomes impossible. Yes, this is back to the same question about resistance limit that many players have repeatedly raised since December. Obviously, the interaction with a difficult BOSS is different from being killed instantly by the BOSS's high damage. Players are amazed that the game is challenging not because the BOSS's damage can kill players instantly, but because the interaction and process are challenging. |
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"Retail WoW died when it stopped being about the average user experience and started being about high tier raiding"
Entirely the opposite, retail wow decline started with cataclysm and lfg tier raids When there's nothing to play for there no reason to play "Diablo 4 despite all its problems has nothing but broad appeal, not that its what's best but they're numbers speak truth." Diablo 4 sold very well but its retention is nowhere, blizzard is all about flashy marketing and design by committee, they do not build games for players they build games for shareholders, they do not care for seasons beyond selling battle pass only expansions It remains to be seen about direction of poe2 as it is bare bones right now but GGG is all about retention and they should not kowtow to players who want everything straight away because those are not people who come back once they've had their fill |
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" Losing 50% of your players in the first month and 70% in 2 months of Poe1 leagues would say otherwise |
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" Thanks for sharing, but I don't think you are right and I don't think you are being objective. " I'm sorry, I'm a player and I clearly disagree. " Why is it absurd ? Trials and errors how you learn best anything, and it also how you can find pride overcoming a challenge by yourself. If you don't like the feeling of failure and would rather use outside tools to make you avoid doing mistakes, that's a whole different story, but I don't think it helps you learn faster than just doing it. " I do not consider PoE1/2 to be MMOs. |
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" I concur! I lost count how many deaths and hours I expent in Hollow Knight, Celest, Metroid Dread and Elden Ring... dying isn't an issue, the lack of reward is. |
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Your objective truth is not about video games it is about video game corporates
It's a sad state of affairs if this is all people want, drip fed sugar or in the case of diablo, drowned in it until they are sick PoE everyone logs in at the start of a league not everyone stays, I don't play every league, I also don't need to log in every day to spin a wheel and I can log out whenever I like because whatever I wanted to do is not time gated making me feel like my time is not my own It is not an mmo nor should it feel like one |
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" well it is Massive, it is multiplayer and it is Online so your wrong |
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Yeah... I'm not
I can see why you're tired of people disagreeing with you |
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