One death per map needs to go

I'm sure I'll play a bit more, but hitting maps has dramatically reduced how much I play and I've functionally stopped as a result. They're just too stressful and unforgiving and feel unfun, even if the moment-to-moment gameplay is still great.

I don't know why GGG needs to make every system so overtly hostile to players all the time, or at least that's what it feels like. Sweatlords can play hardcore if they want to be punished hard for their mistakes. I'm not asking for infinite tries or even the full 6 portals from PoE2, but there's gotta be some kind of middle ground here or else I think dropoff will be MASSIVE as more and more folks get to maps and the unforgiving design starts hindering the fun.

Shame we're probably stuck with this throughout the holidays and into the new year.

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Shamuza#7442 wrote:

This is a manufactured problem. If that is how someone wants to play an ARPG who cares.

You should care. Majority of the PoE 1 players whining that the game is too hard and they're still stuck in Campaign are those players. If you listen to players who want a Cookie Clicker instead of an Arpg, PoE 2 will turn into Diablo 4. And nobody is playing D4 for a good reason.

They will never learn to build defences and cap resists because why bother, they can just headbutt their way through a boss, rack up 2000+ deaths per League and then whine on Reddit how the game is too rippy and how Build Guides are mandatory.

The general idea of map reset is sound, it might just need a better way to implement especially if it screws with Party Play. Either the Rares and Bosses reset or alternatively Map sustain gets heavily buffed where people don't run into the problem of running out of higher tier maps.

GGG is far too smart and talented for this mechanic to be anything more than a rough starting point.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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Shamuza#7442 wrote:

This is a manufactured problem. If that is how someone wants to play an ARPG who cares.

You should care. Majority of the PoE 1 players whining that the game is too hard and they're still stuck in Campaign are those players. If you listen to players who want a Cookie Clicker instead of an Arpg, PoE 2 will turn into Diablo 4. And nobody is playing D4 for a good reason.

They will never learn to build defences and cap resists because why bother, they can just headbutt their way through a boss, rack up 2000+ deaths per League and then whine on Reddit how the game is too rippy and how Build Guides are mandatory.

The general idea of map reset is sound, it might just need a better way to implement especially if it screws with Party Play. Either the Rares and Bosses reset or alternatively Map sustain gets heavily buffed where people don't run into the problem of running out of higher tier maps.

The general idea of map resets is only sound in a game with complete visual clarity, clear feedback on how you died, and deaths that feel avoidable. Right now, PoE2 lacks all of those elements.

This 1 Life Map Nonsense made me stop for now. Not Fun at all.

Old guy checking in. I've put a few days into the game, and have a lvl 72 Warbringer in early maps and a lvl 40-something Mercenary.

The map system is not fun.

PoE 2 is amazing, and, in a way, is the game I've always wanted to play. As someone with well over 10,000 hours in World of Warcraft from Vanilla until a few years ago, I've seen the "unfun" philosophy ruin the gaming experience. PoE 2 has potential to draw in new players, but the experience after the campaign will drive them away.

Let's go back in time to Vanilla WoW. For those unaware, there was a "hybrid tax" in which pure DPS characters would typically deal more damage than a class capable of multiple roles. For example, the rogue was a pure DPS class, while the druid was a hybrid class, with its "feral" specialization playing similarly to a rogue. Since the druid, on average, dealt less damage, few raiding guilds brought many players with alternate specs. Druids, at that time, were usually healers. Sorry if you wanted to tank as a bear, DPS as a cat, or spellcast as a big bird thing, the good guilds usually wanted you to heal.

This was bad design. During the first expansion, the hybrid tax was relaxed somewhat. By the second expansion, it was gone completely, and the game was the better for it. People play rogues, because rogues are cool. If you play rogue well, you have a spot on the team. But so do Shadow Priests, Ret Paladins, and all the other weird specializations.

Players can only be punished for game-decisions so much before they check out. Another WoW example is dual-speccing. Back in the day, respeccing at max level cost 50 gold, a not insignificant sum depending on how many hours you put into the game. Respeccing to do anything solo, and then paying another 50 gold to raid was tiresome and unfun. Playing a game should be fun. The lack of a dual spec was unfun. My first character to raid in Vanilla WoW was a holy priest. I rerolled to a DPS class and had more fun.

PoE 2 is fun in different ways. It is not an MMO. The boss fights are fun, because they are challenging (and should obviously reset after a death). The trash can be fun to see what your build can do. Go-go-go versus slow and steady makes even bigger maps a bit of fun -- but not when death means go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Losing 10% experience is bad design. The simplest way to keep the idea while not framing the penalty as punishment is to grant experience rewards for not dying. You are rewarded for playing well, but not punished for playing poorly, and this is a giant psychological difference. Whoever on the design team is still pro punishment needs to study some really basic marketing.

The same idea holds for one portal. Why? What is fun about one chance, in a game which is meant to be difficult (meaning practice is needed) and innovation should be rewarded? Again, the psychological reframing is easy. Players get a bonus if they complete the map without dying. No punishment; similar system.

Lastly, GGG has an amazing skill tree, in which a character can become almost anything? I wouldn't know. When players are punished for experimenting, they either copy what works or quit. I would like to keep playing early access, and probably will, but if the map system is so badly designed on launch, I'll pass. BADLY is the correct word. Hardcore options are fine, for those who enjoy them, but to make a product to sell, it needs to be fun. All of the hardcore wants and dreams can be accomplished with some simple reframing.

TLDR; use PoE 1 6-portal system and eliminate exp penalties. Reframe these: for each portal not used, increase rewards. Also, gain a +X% increase experience boost when completing a map without dying. Now the hardcore-types have an incentive to play well and min-max, while most players have a more enjoyable experience.

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N3vangel#0037 wrote:

The general idea of map resets is only sound in a game with complete visual clarity, clear feedback on how you died, and deaths that feel avoidable. Right now, PoE2 lacks all of those elements.

Yet somehow HC players are grinding maps. Crazy!

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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Shamuza#7442 wrote:

This is a manufactured problem. If that is how someone wants to play an ARPG who cares.

You should care. Majority of the PoE 1 players whining that the game is too hard and they're still stuck in Campaign are those players. If you listen to players who want a Cookie Clicker instead of an Arpg, PoE 2 will turn into Diablo 4. And nobody is playing D4 for a good reason.

They will never learn to build defences and cap resists because why bother, they can just headbutt their way through a boss, rack up 2000+ deaths per League and then whine on Reddit how the game is too rippy and how Build Guides are mandatory.

The general idea of map reset is sound, it might just need a better way to implement especially if it screws with Party Play. Either the Rares and Bosses reset or alternatively Map sustain gets heavily buffed where people don't run into the problem of running out of higher tier maps.

D4 doesn't have any content. That's why it sucks. Same reason as D3. Has nothing to do with how the game is played. I haven't heard anyone complain that D4 felt bad, it's just a let down, content drought of a game that people paid more than AAA price for. That's why its bad.

That is too shallow of a lense to look at it through. I agree that the game should punish you for building a character like garbage. Not like this though. You can have multiple attempts and a game that still incentivizes good building and punishes the opposite. These things are definitely not mutually exclusive. 1 death in a map kind of tells you there's an issue but doesn't give you a chance to regroup and figure it out. You shouldn't need to watch a video, read a manual, or record your gameplay to figure out what went wrong. 6 deaths, there's no more reason to believe you're not doing something wrong. And that's 600% more context to narrow down what the problem is.

If we're truly adamant on keeping the theme of get it right the first time, we can still have multiple attempts but reduced rewards for that map after each death. Can do the same to bosses to reward people who play truly exceptionally more than the ones who half assed it. Just make both things possible. That's all people want.

There's no reason to have to farm 10 hours to reach a pinnacle boss and only get one attempt at it, unless that's what you want. If that is the case then you should play Hardcore, period. It makes no sense to make that baseline unless you're trying to appeal to only a tiny fraction of players. Which is also crazy if you want players. It's just unreasonable to any reasonable ARPG fan. That being said I love the game and this isn't a dealbreaker for me but I feel the weight, and it's not good.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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N3vangel#0037 wrote:

The general idea of map resets is only sound in a game with complete visual clarity, clear feedback on how you died, and deaths that feel avoidable. Right now, PoE2 lacks all of those elements.

Yet somehow HC players are grinding maps. Crazy!

That's cool. But if GGG doesn't change this insanely punishing death penalty that has no reason to exist, they will lose a lot of players because of it. PoE's main playerbase is SC Trade. Not Hardcore, not SSF. If they lose their main playerbase then no more profits, so the game just dies. Let's see how long it takes them to change this mechanic. People play softcore for a reason, because they don't want to play hardcore. Because losing an entire character on death is the dumbest idea ever to them.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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Shamuza#7442 wrote:

This is a manufactured problem. If that is how someone wants to play an ARPG who cares.

You should care. Majority of the PoE 1 players whining that the game is too hard and they're still stuck in Campaign are those players. If you listen to players who want a Cookie Clicker instead of an Arpg, PoE 2 will turn into Diablo 4. And nobody is playing D4 for a good reason.

They will never learn to build defences and cap resists because why bother, they can just headbutt their way through a boss, rack up 2000+ deaths per League and then whine on Reddit how the game is too rippy and how Build Guides are mandatory.

The general idea of map reset is sound, it might just need a better way to implement especially if it screws with Party Play. Either the Rares and Bosses reset or alternatively Map sustain gets heavily buffed where people don't run into the problem of running out of higher tier maps.

They will hate you for speaking the truth, brother.