deleted

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sidtherat wrote:

i just loaded it into POB

4500 life
0 Energy Shield

SRS summoner + leech

why 0 ES? because without Aegis you have no way of replenishing it once the 2500 you have is gone to a first hit. you have no wicked ward, no faster ES recharge, no ES leech (unless spectres give you that, then maybe). ES on your build, once you take Aegis is worthless and without it you are 'armour faux-stacker with 4500 life summoner' - aka carried by angry skulls piece of paper

i do not want to see any videos, esp when SRS can just clear the map without even seeing a mob. but maybe do it for yourself, youll get some perspective. and people did this setup 5 years ago so it is nothing new nor revolutionary

0 ES ? Seems like you have an error in POB or loaded the wrong character. Not surprising.



So you dont want to see a video of this build doing a t17 without aegis or not? You just said it will only die without it, so you want to stand by that opinion of yours or not?

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sidtherat wrote:

Aegis Aurora keeps you alive, not armour (as a form of defence). you need armour to fuel Aegis, but for absolutely nothing else. do you really think that 15k Armour (or whatever number you have) would save you in T17? it wouldnt. your character lives as long as you keep Aegis. you swap it for anything else - you die.

Aegis with 15k armor provides 300 ES per blocked hit. Even if we just use the 2,2k damage hit's that POB calculates with for a t17, which is likely too low, how long do you think he would last with zero phys mitigation and only that 300 ES gain? Aegis Aurora by itself does nothing, you need high mitigations against all elements to reduce the incoming damage down to a level where your ES gain from Aegis can nullify it.

You have a point in that armor comes in large parts from areas other than the armor you wear but that doesn't make it a meaningless stat in any way. So you can get 10k armor with just granite and determination? Nice. But that doesn't change the fact that you'll have two or three times that much if you actually use armor gear. Just do the math for a change.

Determination + Granite with armor suffix provides 2200 base + 1500 = 3700 base x 1,6x for the suffix increase = 6000 x 1,5 = ~9000. Sure that's nice for a start but now add ~5000 armor from gear on top and you have 20k+. And that's still a prudent estimate. My jugg for example has 56k armor without determination and without flasks.

If you want to make full use of armor then using armor or hybrid armor pieces has a massive impact. More armor on gear -> more base armor-> more effectiveness of the increase/more multipliers you have. If your only base is determination and a flask that isn't up non stop there is only so much you can get out of it. But maybe that's actually your problem? You judge armor based on builds that only get it from those 2 sources and wonder why it feels useless?

he has more than 15k, cannot see his guardian and spectres, these most probably give a nice chunk. also with flask it clearly goes to 30k of visible stuff. so i estimate it is ~800ES per block

he is ~capped without glancing blows so 3 hits heal, 4th hit damages on average. with this number the sustain is pretty much infinite, not far from Defiance of Destiny

given summoner, most hits dont even connect (and he has an option to offscreen in a pinch) so there is not that much to worry about. vs endgame bosses he is carried by not being close to the danger, minion taunt, body blocking and huge dps with 100% uptime

ive played CI Aegis Necro Cremation with ~5k ES and Armour mostly from 'thin air'. i was fine with every content - mostly due to OBSCENE damage but i could take hits that didnt cross the 1hit threshold indefinitely. Incandescent Heart is such a strong piece with phys taken as chaos implicits/mastery

my problem with armour is that Lightning Coil gives me more for less than stacking AR rolls (that eat precious preffixes) on several pieces of gear. 65% phys as ele is worth more than what you get for a reasonable investment into AR and CANNOT BE tinkered with. helmet, chest, maybe shield corruption - for a price of wearing Lightning Coil/Cloak of Flames it frees me from giving a damn



guess what prefix is wasted :)

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sidtherat wrote:

he has more than 15k, cannot see his guardian and spectres, these most probably give a nice chunk. also with flask it clearly goes to 30k of visible stuff. so i estimate it is ~800ES per block

he is ~capped without glancing blows so 3 hits heal, 4th hit damages on average. with this number the sustain is pretty much infinite, not far from Defiance of Destiny

given summoner, most hits dont even connect (and he has an option to offscreen in a pinch) so there is not that much to worry about. vs endgame bosses he is carried by not being close to the danger, minion taunt, body blocking and huge dps with 100% uptime

ive played CI Aegis Necro Cremation with ~5k ES and Armour mostly from 'thin air'. i was fine with every content - mostly due to OBSCENE damage but i could take hits that didnt cross the 1hit threshold indefinitely. Incandescent Heart is such a strong piece with phys taken as chaos implicits/mastery

So in summary you have no idea what my builds stats are. And no idea how SRS is even played in this game. Good just adding that to the list of things just in this thread alone that you are wrong on.

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sidtherat wrote:

my problem with armour is that Lightning Coil gives me more for less than stacking AR rolls (that eat precious preffixes) on several pieces of gear. 65% phys as ele is worth more than what you get for a reasonable investment into AR and CANNOT BE tinkered with. helmet, chest, maybe shield corruption - for a price of wearing Lightning Coil/Cloak of Flames it frees me from giving a damn

guess what prefix is wasted :)

Okay Im gonna go out on a limb and say that chest piece that is linked was created before eater and exarch were released in this game (before Feb 2022)

Anything created in the last... christ 2 years is better than that thing you listed.

The item you linked, isnt a problem with armour. Its the .... Item you linked in general. Its something that was probably useful when drox, veritania, and company were the end game content of POE.

A pure armour base with 1.4k armour at 25% qual WITH a %70 armour roll? Of course the thing is gonna be terrible defensively. Thats not the purpose of this armour piece.

The purpose of it is so you can get an additional curse(is that a delve mod? Or hunter? I cant see it from here), and the crit chance mod.

Assuming the additional curse is delve, as if you build a single influence base nowadays to get the crit chance mod and GIVE UP both eater and exarch implicits.

If this item is an example for you forming your opinion on why "armour is a wasted stat" than no wonder you think this. That item is useless now.

I am actually curious what you would put in %armours place though.

Recovery on block is the most tried and true shortcut to deal with an overwhelming majority of content in the game I don't think it can really be overstated how much it flattens the damage curve to a manageable or even irrelevant value.

Prior to its nerf this is why gladiator was the popular and easy choice if you wanted to do all tiers of maps without really caring. 75/75 block with 5% recovery (or the uul-netol shield) means you have to get to a certain amount of damage per hit from enemies before you actually take any damage.

I'm only mentioning that because in any topic about defence where Aegis aurora or any other source of recovery on block comes up it has to be stated just how strong it is.

As to armour I think Sid is fundamentally right. Now on HC we don't think armour values are worthless and in general a double armour or armour/evade prefix with a slot for phys taken as ele is the goal on most pieces but they are absolutely right that determination/grace are abominations when it comes to defensive weighting.

Full Dragonscale
--------
Quality: +30% (augmented)
Armour: 1125 (augmented)
Evasion Rating: 935 (augmented)
--------
Determination has 21% increased Aura Effect (implicit)
10% increased effect of Non-Curse Auras from your Skills (implicit)
--------
+16% chance to Suppress Spell Damage
+76 to Armour
+84 to Evasion Rating
53% increased Armour and Evasion
+47% to Cold Resistance
8% additional Physical Damage Reduction
6% of Physical Damage from Hits taken as Fire Damage (crafted)
6% of Physical Damage from Hits taken as Lightning Damage (crafted)

This is a good example of what i'd call the standard HC chest, now ideally you want higher tier rolls of the armour mods but you wouldn't particularly care if they were lower like this because determination, especially with extra aura effect will give you over half your armour probably even more.

This is changing however as almost every busted defensive setup requires your body armour slot, fourth vow, incandescent heart, lightning coil, cloak of flame are all extremely popular once corrupted to the appropriate none melee + gem bonuses :p

Now all that said is armour worthless? No, I view ~ 20k armour as pretty much mandatory, the most common damage type is phys, 20k has a pretty low cost to build but has a profound impact on your character as you no longer have to be concerned about incidental phys hits.

However to go back to Sid's point it is vastly easier to hit 20k with shit armour on your gear and determination than it is to hit it with good armour on your gear without det. If that doesn't suggest a problem I don't know what to tell you.

GGG are trashing their defensive stat system atm with intense power creep, it used to be that generally good defenses + some player skill was enough for all content and you could become borderline invincible if you went for OP route A, B or C. Now that borderline invincibility is the standard for content and good defenses (or old good defenses) feel drastically inadequate. That's crushing build diversity on the whole if you care about that, I do but obviously many don't and its creating a very artificial gap in who can do content and who can't.

Just to highlight a few of these incase this post isn't long enough (sorry if you got this far)

Overwhelm has vastly higher values than penetration despite being on a more common/dangerous damage type

Penetration is mandatory for inclusion on content due to the ease of access for 90 in a particular res

Spell suppression lacks an equivalent reduction and isn't anywhere near as common, its also relatively cheap still in terms of passive efficiency. Any damage value balanced around spell suppression becomes either overwhelming if you don't have it, or irrelevant if you do depending on which side chosen.

Phys taken as ele is too easily sourced and far to passive efficient, Lightning coil is basically the equivalent of 10 endurance charges which takes your entire character in comparison.

On the flipside GGG know PDR is actually a seriously OP stat which is why it was removed from the passive tree, this kind of duality makes it very hard to understand where they want content to be.

A game that pretends to have gear balance in general then has mageblood as an item is dumb AF... sorry had to get that one in there.

tldr/summary

Defences are heavily scuffed right now and its homologating all setups on characters capable of endgame, armour on gear is largely irrelevant though preferable to other prefixes. Auras + Taken as + Suppress provide far too much of the pie either individually or together.

they really need to sit down and look at defences and damage again.

Some stuff needs removed (though not armour or block...alternate ele shit like exposure)
But the rest just needs re balanced.

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

they really need to sit down and look at defences and damage again.

Some stuff needs removed (though not armour or block...alternate ele shit like exposure)
But the rest just needs re balanced.

Oh no they don't lol

its interesting to see very polarizing views.

on one side "armor is not good enough" while on the other side "its OP AF"

to me its somewhere in the middle.

i actually definitely is OP if you fully invest in it. its [Removed by Support] OP with what you can do with it but my issue with that is you're kinda funneled into playing a certain way if you want to take advantage of armor, for example using replica dream feather.

if you stack armor like mad why arent you using replica dreamfeather? its too good not to use.

on the flipside, having determination and some random armor/flasks up you have a decent amount of armor that can keep you alive "mostly".

on the other extreme end, if you dont have armour you might as well not use it at all due to how armour scales.

i would say, despite how OP armour is, how GGG "nerfs" armour is equally busted.

-50% ele resist is NOT the same as -50% phys resists. you cant "over cap armour" and getting flat phys resists are way harder than ele/chaos.

that said, i m more on the side of "the issue exists" team rather than "ggg really shouldnt waste their time listening to what most forumers complain" team.

its interesting because normally i m against the people on this side of the fence. but i actually do understand and agree to many things that they have to say just that not 100%. they're viewing armor from the extreme best perspective. what armour stackers can do. the pinnacle of armour which also translates to damage. and i do know how good armour can get too. but just because i know how good armor can get is enough for me to lightly brush off the other end of the spectrum and the rest in between.

this topic really highlights how polarizing forum members views can be. which is why i keep saying, the better you are at the game, your views represent the general community even less.

Meanwhile i just wish good old days when i could build basic pure ES stacked build with no nonsense (no stat stacking, mana stacking, ivory tower or guardian ascendancy reservation shenanigans). Today pure basic ES is so utter garbage its astonishing.

Edit: and how come, the witch is the worst at defending with es than templar or shadow? Like a lot worse.

I wonder if this topic has been posted with the sole purpose of you being annoying. I won't even read anything except the title.

I agree that it has to be reworked a little bit but removed... I can't find words to describe how silly this sounds.

Good luck on your next try.