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troll or not troll - the point is valid
Armour is deeply flawed mechanic:
- does not exist without Determination
- armour on gear is mostly wasted stat
- 'monsters overwhelm' exists
- getting 'enough' of it is VERY costly (opportunity cost is HUGE)
- if you want to go beyond - the most important piece for Armour stacker is Grace, evasion aura.. it is just stupid on too many levels to count
- Armour does not guarantee anything, it is not predictible and reliable (for the user) in what it does. 20K in one scenario is ok, in the other - it is nothing. it is not 'cool' mechanic to plan for as a player
On the other hand:
Lightning Coil + Delve helmet/implicit for ~15 phys as ele -> 65% phys as ele and that conversion is immutable. you dont care about pen, overwhelm and shit like that. you equip two items and it stays
Same story with Suppression. there is a cap - 100%. once you reach that, you get it. half damage from spells. period. map mods suck, but they suck in a predictible way. 40% reduction means 40% reduction. 40% overwhelm means jack shit (and it will kill you anyway)
Block.. without recovery on block it is not worth investing. you get what shield gives you, maybe +spell block roll + tempest shield. but anything more is wasted unless recovery is in place. the modern block passives (aka Versatile Combatant and stuff) are garbage. best way to get block - Bone Offering Necro.
some streamers start to notice this as well. T17 happy comic mod bonanza kinda removed the veil exposing the rotting problems. and Armour + %PDR is most likely the saddest victim
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Posted bysidtheraton Apr 29, 2024, 5:00:46 PM
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troll or not troll - the point is valid
Armour is deeply flawed mechanic:
- does not exist without Determination
- armour on gear is mostly wasted stat
- 'monsters overwhelm' exists
- getting 'enough' of it is VERY costly (opportunity cost is HUGE)
- if you want to go beyond - the most important piece for Armour stacker is Grace, evasion aura.. it is just stupid on too many levels to count
- Armour does not guarantee anything, it is not predictible and reliable (for the user) in what it does. 20K in one scenario is ok, in the other - it is nothing. it is not 'cool' mechanic to plan for as a player
On the other hand:
Lightning Coil + Delve helmet/implicit for ~15 phys as ele -> 65% phys as ele and that conversion is immutable. you dont care about pen, overwhelm and shit like that. you equip two items and it stays
Same story with Suppression. there is a cap - 100%. once you reach that, you get it. half damage from spells. period. map mods suck, but they suck in a predictible way. 40% reduction means 40% reduction. 40% overwhelm means jack shit (and it will kill you anyway)
Block.. without recovery on block it is not worth investing. you get what shield gives you, maybe +spell block roll + tempest shield. but anything more is wasted unless recovery is in place. the modern block passives (aka Versatile Combatant and stuff) are garbage. best way to get block - Bone Offering Necro.
some streamers start to notice this as well. T17 happy comic mod bonanza kinda removed the veil exposing the rotting problems. and Armour + %PDR is most likely the saddest victim
Completely agree with this assessment, as with most things that are supposed to be mainstays of "melee" that are supposed to make melee "tanky" compared to spells and ranged playstyles, the reality is that outdated and obsolete ideas (made obsolete by damage shifting and Spell supress mostly) continue to hold down entire archetpyes.
Armour is:
1. very RNG in a game where you will face X amount of potential RNG spike deaths per hour.
2. very high cost for unreliable RNG defense in a game where you will face X amount of RNG spike damage
3. commonly paired with/backed up by Block which is another percentage based RNG system and directly nerfs MELEE DAMAGE BUT NOT SPELL in a game where you will face X amount of RNG damage spikes per hour.
This means you will absolutely at some point just fall over instantly if you use these systems X amount of your gametime.
Unless you play the Hard core micromanagement mini game of avoiding content or use reliable defensive layers instead of or in addition to the RNG layers.
But of course only a select few archtypes have access to both reliable layers AND can cap block and spell block. I can't emphasize enough just how ass backwards it is that for 5 or 6 years now the tankiest characters in the game have continued to be necromancers, and damage shifters of various sorts and varieties.
Meanwhile massively Armoured ZDPS Quin builds just randomly fall over when they meet their RNG hard counter popping out of strong boxes with "overwhelm"
as if there's any counter play to this, except "lol avoid content like the HC pros do until your character's gearing hard counters all the content you do"
I dunno about anyone else but I don't play ARPG's for binary hard counter meta gaming.
"only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev
"when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_ Last edited by alhazred70 on Apr 29, 2024, 5:41:13 PM
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Posted byalhazred70on Apr 29, 2024, 5:37:55 PM
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If the game wasn't so 1shotty as well as having their threats buried under particle effects, not to mention armor and evasion actually being good enough to use on their own without costing an insurmountable amount of currency, I'd be inclined to agree with the OP.
As it stands, you need to stack as many defensive layers as you can so you don't leave yourself wondering what killed you for the nth time.
PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds.
Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build!
MFers found strength in their Afflictions. They became reliant on them. I am not so foolish.
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Posted byPizzarugion Apr 29, 2024, 5:54:52 PM
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I didn't believe that this post was serious until I saw that we were dealing with a summoner main.
He is 100% serious.
I was about to say this exact thing. It's summoners every single time.
I'm a summoner main and am confused by what this means. Are we suggesting the OP, as a summoner main, is stacking tons of defense layers and is complaining about it?
PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds.
Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build!
MFers found strength in their Afflictions. They became reliant on them. I am not so foolish.
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Posted byPizzarugion Apr 29, 2024, 5:57:15 PM
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I would really like to see the hit-damage dependence of the armour formula removed. I never loved it but at least before overwhelm existed there was some kind of conceptual justification. Now though, overwhelm has taken that position as a separate stat, so the unpredictability of armour doesn’t really have much reason to remain.
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Posted byGusTheCrocodileon Apr 29, 2024, 6:03:12 PM
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Okay so let's be honest. These 2 defence layers are jokes. They do their job so well that every Tom's Hairy Di* wants to stack 80-100% phys taken as elemental and 100% suppress even if they are on the red side of the tree. For the amount of effort needed to stack enough armour to make it "work", most builds can just get phys taken as something else for cheaper and besides that it's not like that much armour comes for free. It actively precludes some builds from functioning enough to do red tier maps at all. And then let's not get into the fact that every second league mob in the game somehow has access to overwhelm and one of the possible red tier map mods is 40% less armour. Much wowzers there. Amaze ballsa*. That's not "more difficult". That's literally a death sentence for the average build relying on using some armour.
And let's just say, same for block. One of the most popular shield options for tanky builds doesn't even have positive synergy with block itself, for fu*'s sake. The only times ive seen anyone get block to work is when it comes with recover on block. For all that effort, frankly, one of those recover life on getting hit options actually sounds extremely cost effective.
So please, it's plain as day obvious that the ggg office detests players who actually, wishlist crystalson-forbid, try to tank physical damage the "correct" way by stacking block, armour, and pdr. You can do us all a favour by making it official by deleting armour and block from the game. If you want to replace it with something i heavily suggest light radius. At least light radius does what it says it does on the tin. Armour and block are such cheap jokes that stand-ups trying to use them will get themselves and any mentors they have blacklisted for life.
As a summoner main, no. You are asking for our builds to not be viable. Sorry hard pass.
Last edited by Ayxera on Apr 29, 2024, 8:33:59 PM
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Posted byAyxeraon Apr 29, 2024, 8:31:40 PM
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Okay so let's be honest. These 2 defence layers are jokes. They do their job so well that every Tom's Hairy Di* wants to stack 80-100% phys taken as elemental and 100% suppress even if they are on the red side of the tree. For the amount of effort needed to stack enough armour to make it "work", most builds can just get phys taken as something else for cheaper and besides that it's not like that much armour comes for free. It actively precludes some builds from functioning enough to do red tier maps at all. And then let's not get into the fact that every second league mob in the game somehow has access to overwhelm and one of the possible red tier map mods is 40% less armour. Much wowzers there. Amaze ballsa*. That's not "more difficult". That's literally a death sentence for the average build relying on using some armour.
And let's just say, same for block. One of the most popular shield options for tanky builds doesn't even have positive synergy with block itself, for fu*'s sake. The only times ive seen anyone get block to work is when it comes with recover on block. For all that effort, frankly, one of those recover life on getting hit options actually sounds extremely cost effective.
So please, it's plain as day obvious that the ggg office detests players who actually, wishlist crystalson-forbid, try to tank physical damage the "correct" way by stacking block, armour, and pdr. You can do us all a favour by making it official by deleting armour and block from the game. If you want to replace it with something i heavily suggest light radius. At least light radius does what it says it does on the tin. Armour and block are such cheap jokes that stand-ups trying to use them will get themselves and any mentors they have blacklisted for life.
Hey mate, I don't mean any disrespect but your build is really weak and has barely any investment in survival. Take a look at mine if you want to see how to actually be tanky as a minion build.
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Posted byAyxeraon Apr 29, 2024, 8:33:43 PM
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I didn't believe that this post was serious until I saw that we were dealing with a summoner main.
He is 100% serious.
I was about to say this exact thing. It's summoners every single time.
I'm a summoner main and am confused by what this means. Are we suggesting the OP, as a summoner main, is stacking tons of defense layers and is complaining about it?
If you look at their build, the answer is no. It is very weak.
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Posted byAyxeraon Apr 29, 2024, 8:34:27 PM
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troll or not troll - the point is valid
Armour is deeply flawed mechanic:
- does not exist without Determination
- armour on gear is mostly wasted stat
- 'monsters overwhelm' exists
- getting 'enough' of it is VERY costly (opportunity cost is HUGE)
- if you want to go beyond - the most important piece for Armour stacker is Grace, evasion aura.. it is just stupid on too many levels to count
- Armour does not guarantee anything, it is not predictible and reliable (for the user) in what it does. 20K in one scenario is ok, in the other - it is nothing. it is not 'cool' mechanic to plan for as a player
On the other hand:
Lightning Coil + Delve helmet/implicit for ~15 phys as ele -> 65% phys as ele and that conversion is immutable. you dont care about pen, overwhelm and shit like that. you equip two items and it stays
Same story with Suppression. there is a cap - 100%. once you reach that, you get it. half damage from spells. period. map mods suck, but they suck in a predictible way. 40% reduction means 40% reduction. 40% overwhelm means jack shit (and it will kill you anyway)
Block.. without recovery on block it is not worth investing. you get what shield gives you, maybe +spell block roll + tempest shield. but anything more is wasted unless recovery is in place. the modern block passives (aka Versatile Combatant and stuff) are garbage. best way to get block - Bone Offering Necro.
some streamers start to notice this as well. T17 happy comic mod bonanza kinda removed the veil exposing the rotting problems. and Armour + %PDR is most likely the saddest victim
Nope your point isn't valid either meanwhile I see HC players with massive armor conversion suppression and I'll quote what Alkaiser Said.
''Armor is literally one of the most broken stats in the game if you know what you're doing''
You do not know what you're doing apparently from your post.
Dys an sohm
Rohs an kyn
Sahl djahs afah
Mah morn narr Last edited by Coconutdoggy on Apr 29, 2024, 8:38:13 PM
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Posted byCoconutdoggyon Apr 29, 2024, 8:37:55 PM
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troll or not troll - the point is valid
Armour is deeply flawed mechanic:
- does not exist without Determination
- armour on gear is mostly wasted stat
- 'monsters overwhelm' exists
- getting 'enough' of it is VERY costly (opportunity cost is HUGE)
- if you want to go beyond - the most important piece for Armour stacker is Grace, evasion aura.. it is just stupid on too many levels to count
- Armour does not guarantee anything, it is not predictible and reliable (for the user) in what it does. 20K in one scenario is ok, in the other - it is nothing. it is not 'cool' mechanic to plan for as a player
On the other hand:
Lightning Coil + Delve helmet/implicit for ~15 phys as ele -> 65% phys as ele and that conversion is immutable. you dont care about pen, overwhelm and shit like that. you equip two items and it stays
Same story with Suppression. there is a cap - 100%. once you reach that, you get it. half damage from spells. period. map mods suck, but they suck in a predictible way. 40% reduction means 40% reduction. 40% overwhelm means jack shit (and it will kill you anyway)
Block.. without recovery on block it is not worth investing. you get what shield gives you, maybe +spell block roll + tempest shield. but anything more is wasted unless recovery is in place. the modern block passives (aka Versatile Combatant and stuff) are garbage. best way to get block - Bone Offering Necro.
some streamers start to notice this as well. T17 happy comic mod bonanza kinda removed the veil exposing the rotting problems. and Armour + %PDR is most likely the saddest victim
You are clowning if you don't think 75% chance to avoid an attack or spell is good. My BAMA character has significantly higher max hit takens, but falls over if a pack is near. Where as my Carrion Golem can walk into packs of t17 and have no issues, with less suppression and phys max hits.
Last edited by Ayxera on Apr 29, 2024, 8:42:52 PM
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Posted byAyxeraon Apr 29, 2024, 8:41:43 PM
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