deleted

"

sidtherat wrote:

troll or not troll

This is as much bait as the OP here lol. Never seen so much wrong in a single post.

"

sidtherat wrote:

armour on gear is mostly wasted stat

Imagine throwing on determination and not having a single piece of gear with armour on it, and then the reverse of that.

Its completely night and day in terms of defense.

So either you dont know what you are talking about or you dont play the game at all.
Or a combination of both.


You're free to your own opinion though.

Dude has never seen HC players apparently lmao

The single most common skill used in hardcore is determination, by a wide margin.

The two most common weapon setups both involve shields.

I don't see how anyone can say block and armor are weak when the entire hardcore playerbase disagrees with you.

"

Chickenwink wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

troll or not troll

This is as much bait as the OP here lol. Never seen so much wrong in a single post.

"

sidtherat wrote:

armour on gear is mostly wasted stat

Imagine throwing on determination and not having a single piece of gear with armour on it, and then the reverse of that.

Its completely night and day in terms of defense.

So either you dont know what you are talking about or you dont play the game at all.
Or a combination of both.


You're free to your own opinion though.

i believe you havent done math in this case

Determination L21 + 25% aura effect + 60% granite -> ~11000 AR out of thin f.. air.

AR items setup but no Determination + 60% granite

rough values (nobody uses full AR items so hard to pick proper values)
chest - 2000
shield - 2000
helm - 700
gloves, boots, belt combined - 1000
(note: that mostly means you are using meme items but there are exceptions ofc)

with my rough math it totals to ~6000 and with granite ~12000

ofc there are passives and stuff but it is mostly irrelevant because outside very specific builds that can afford to wear bad gear (getting high AR on a piece requires TWO prefixes or a specific unique) nobody wears items like this.

this is why Determination is so common. summoners and rangers want to have AR too and they get it in spades, for 1 aura slot.

ofc you can combine AR from items and Determination but.. why? the point of OP that many of you missed is that you can stack all AR you want but once you encounter 'overwhelm' you are dead due to how overwhelm % reduction works.

sure, Aegis, 4th Wov and few others make AR very desirable stat but even then you get %reduced AR from a map mod (mod that gets HUGE multiplier from atlas now) and again, it is as if you had nothing


meanwhile 'phys as ele' CANNOT be negated like that, it cheap to get, universally effective and outside -max res it is immutable

nothing stops anyone from layering these things and they compound on each other but imo the weakest link is AR from gear (you want to use AR/EV pieces anyway for +max res/suppress anyway - that cuts flat values roughly in half), then the flat %PDR (you might not notice overwhelm playing as an offscreen summoner but try melee for once and you will know, oh boy you will know). the phys as ele remains and it is what keeps people alive (that and HUGE recovery, possibly from Aegis fueled with AR ofc - but overwhelm does not affect this value)


and with block.. getting 75/75 is EXPENSIVE. mostly done 'from the thin air' as getting that much from gear is insanity. enter '-%block' map mod with mod effect and all that investment goes down the drain

people in HC use Determination and block - sure. but they also reroll these mods religiously. -%armour/-%block on an AR/block build is suicide in the making. same with overwhelm.

remove overwhelm from mods and AR makes more sense. until one mod can remove your ENTIRE (literally, it lowers your PDR to ZERO) defence layer - it is pointless to invest into it other than fuel for other mechanics

I think baseline defenses could use a hefty balance passthrough. Some things might need to be buffed and nerfed.

Unfortunately the days of getting the majority of armor/ev/es from gear and the passive tree is pretty much gone. Most defense wheels are taken because they have other good stats on them. Poe defenses come from stacking aura effect and other defenses on top of a character to the point where almost every character wants any form of less damage taken adding up with each other.

If ggg ever changes how conversion works it will brick 90% of builds as a consequence, so it would be good to get more potent defenses on a cheaper budget than armor stacking.

I agree with some of what OP said, and disagree with others. I frankly don't like being forced to run 80% of my mana to get baseline defenses. Determination is so ubiquitous it should be removed because not running it requires so much investment in damage so you can't get hit, or significantly more es/ev to the point a character can survive being hit. But yet, having determination would still be a pretty sizable upgrade in almost any build that can fit it in.

Honestly block would be fine if they removed the stunlock and stun recovery from it, since dodge doesn't do that. Blocks cap of 75% feels strong, it covers enough to be good and requires quite a bit of investment. I like how it is different than fortify/suppression because it does have a bit of danger. I actually like the nerfed versatile combatant because it gives me 50/50 for one or two attack block wheels.

Like most things in POE, the way things works in the game differs wildly from how the fantasy of a mechanic works. Like swinging a big 2handed weapon into a pack of enemies basically requires shouting 3 times, cursing them twice, dropping two haunted sticks to cheer you on, and then you get the luxury of swinging a weapon. We don't get armor from wearing a bunch of steel plate, we get it by wearing a flaming cloak and glowing orange orbs.

On a side note, if you aren't running a curse. Enfeeble is worth using.

Overwhelm and penetration both are somewhat problematic stats to put on enemies since they mostly invalidate basic defensive mechanics on the player side. That was still somewhat fine when it was limited to specific endgame encounters but it's been getting out of hand lately with both. That fact obviously makes other mechanics that don't have counters like that more attractive but even then, the conclusion drawn here is absurd.
Rather than removing armor and block GGG should weaken/remove overwhelm and penetration. Even more than taking care of overwhelm on armor builds, being forced to use "taken as another element" modifiers in abundance to not get oneshot by uber boss mechanics is kinda lame. It's not hard to do or expensive or anything but it severely limits item choices and just feels REALLY binary.

I play a lot of armor based characters and frankly the only time I notice overwhelm as a problem is in Simus where the mod can show up in signiciant amount on later waves making them quite a bit harder but still doable. Other cases of overwhelm in my experience are either avoidable (strongboxes/expedition mod) or not high enough to make a noticable impact.
Mapmods are honestly whatever. Every defense layer has mapmods that fuck with it, just roll them over if you aren't confident in your defenses with them on. This isn't unique to block or armour.

"

sidtherat wrote:

i believe you havent done math in this case

Determination L21 + 25% aura effect + 60% granite -> ~11000 AR out of thin f.. air.

AR items setup but no Determination + 60% granite

rough values (nobody uses full AR items so hard to pick proper values)
chest - 2000
shield - 2000
helm - 700
gloves, boots, belt combined - 1000
(note: that mostly means you are using meme items but there are exceptions ofc)

First off these values are all over the top end game crafts for any combo base types, these involve multiple t2-t1 rolls on +ar %ar to even obtain.

You realize you just said armour is a wasted stat and then say noone is taking pure armour items, but than throw up 2k as an armour value on a non pure armour right? 2k?? You arent hitting 2k without using these "useless mods" and a lot of other things...

Okay so for reference here is an actual item I crafted in affliction


Look all that I put into this, and it didnt even hit 2k.

You arent just willy nilly hitting 2k armour on a mixed base it takes a lot of high mods on armour AND a high enough base type, AND a high enough roll base, AND a high enough Ilevel for the base type roll. And then over 20 qual.


Now lets go ahead and see what happens when you just, take off these "wasted armour stats" on community:

Using my character from affliction and removing both +armoures% and +armoures (we include ES, not just because its actually on the armour, but you even say noones using pure armour so this follows your parameters:


3k max phys hit gone
6k ele max hit gone

Extremely substantial.

This is equivalent to saying bye bye to 3 endurance charges of defense. How do I know this? Because my character uses endurance charges and thats the exact value I lose if I drop endurance charges.

"

sidtherat wrote:

with my rough math it totals to ~6000 and with granite ~12000

ofc there are passives and stuff but it is mostly irrelevant because outside very specific builds that can afford to wear bad gear (getting high AR on a piece requires TWO prefixes or a specific unique) nobody wears items like this.

Extremely inconsistent and irrational, youre building in a vaccuum here but then not above. Noone is NOT building their passive tree around the stats they want to scale. You dont roll a Jugg and scale everything .... armour on your tree/acsecendancy and then go

"Yea ill just build evasion bases for my armour, sounds like fun"

"

sidtherat wrote:

this is why Determination is so common. summoners and rangers want to have AR too and they get it in spades, for 1 aura slot.

Determination is taken because it provides high phys dam reduction. And most people, scale their armour to take advantage of it.

"

sidtherat wrote:

ofc you can combine AR from items and Determination but.. why? the point of OP that many of you missed is that you can stack all AR you want but once you encounter 'overwhelm' you are dead due to how overwhelm % reduction works.

Never had an issue with overwhelm. And even if you did, which I doubt, you could just...

You ready?

Roll past it.

"

sidtherat wrote:

sure, Aegis, 4th Wov and few others make AR very desirable stat but even then you get %reduced AR from a map mod (mod that gets HUGE multiplier from atlas now) and again, it is as if you had nothing

Roll past it, why is that so hard to understand?

Roll past problematic mods for your specific build too difficult? You can afford several t1-t2 rolls on a cracked 2k combo armour piece but to cheap to roll map modifiers you struggle with?

"

sidtherat wrote:

meanwhile 'phys as ele' CANNOT be negated like that, it cheap to get, universally effective and outside -max res it is immutable

Except taking phys as ele is expensive? What are you talking about? Influenced prefix roll on one and then filling everything else out? You cant even get the influenced mods unless you want to start giving up eater/exarch benefits.

I really hope you arent banking on the bench craft prefix because this will be a nonstarter for you.

Okay I add life+the bench phys taken 6% craft. Now what? Whats my last prefix? I cant use armour apparently since its a wasted stat(according to you). Dont respond if its something like Guatelitzi's, you just said the item was cheap and easy to get.


Lets go ahead and use that same chest piece and apply a phys taken bench craft at 6%


and here is with the added lowest T2 armour/es%(92%) roll back on


They provide the similar phys defense, only the armor/es provides me extra elemental.

"

sidtherat wrote:

nothing stops anyone from layering these things and they compound on each other but imo the weakest link is AR from gear (you want to use AR/EV pieces anyway for +max res/suppress anyway - that cuts flat values roughly in half), then the flat %PDR (you might not notice overwhelm playing as an offscreen summoner but try melee for once and you will know, oh boy you will know).

Okay yea you definitely dont play this game.

Summoners do not stand off screen, they are in the mobs face. You wont get any spectre+AG value(meat shield or you lose them 100% of the time) if you stand out of range. Similarly with your own auras wont even reach your minions (-a lot of damage) if you are not near. +Any support/effects wont hit the mobs if they are off screen (-even more damage)

Whats funny is melee slam skills are more offscreen and effective at offscreen, than summoners are.

"

sidtherat wrote:

the phys as ele remains and it is what keeps people alive (that and HUGE recovery, possibly from Aegis fueled with AR ofc - but overwhelm does not affect this value)

No idea what you are talking about with aegis fueled with AR.

"

sidtherat wrote:

and with block.. getting 75/75 is EXPENSIVE. mostly done 'from the thin air' as getting that much from gear is insanity. enter '-%block' map mod with mod effect and all that investment goes down the drainthis value)

Block cap is hard and expensive... if you just started playing POE and have no idea how to build a character. More to say on this but... no its not hard to cap either if you know how to play.

Again you dont roll a map mod your build cant handle. I specifically avoid -block mod.

Or avoid cannot regen

Or avoid monsters speed/action speed for blight


Why is this so confusing for you? What the moment reflect shows up against an on hit build do you just uninstall the game?

Go ahead and go unprivate I wanna see these "real melee" builds you talk about all the time. Let me know when you can.

Sid does have a point re: "armor values on equipment vs flasks and buffs." When I'm playing a HC build I usually shoot for hybrid armor evasion because it's better defensively than pure armor gear, most of the time. A Triumph Lamellar is only slightly weaker than a glorious plate with similar mods and can also roll spell suppression.

But that's not at all what the thread is about and it's not what OP said.

not trying to quibble but Glorious plate isn't slightly stronger than triumphant lam its actually weaker and not slightly. I point this out (again not to be a nit pick) purely because its a pet peeve I and many others including some of the big HC streamers. (Ben and Quin have both gone on about this)

They are: 892 AR vs 986 AR+EV combined (respectively) ofc assuming proper Armour stacking AKA Iron reflexes. and it only gets better and easier to roll for the hybrid base.

T1 flat AR is 500
T1 flat AR+EV is 750

So as you can see Triumphant Lamellar is absolutely running away with the Armour crown. (especially for Jugg post "bug fix")

These are among the many reasons why if you're using armour you should be using IR and hybrid bases, even ignoring that you also get Spell suppression out of this.

This is part of the reason some people who aren't devoid of nuance are trying to have a discussion about this despite the obvious hyperbolic thread title, sadly befuddled by the disingenuous nuance free types who are trying to turn that discussion into a strawman festival (as usual).

Ben's last gauntlet winner: DD Necromancer with offering Block using Determ and a Granite (a HC staple as Sid points out correctly and others apparently don't understand is a well known thing datig all the way back to RaizQT being a huge proponent of the strat) but his Helm boots and Gloves are hybrid or pure EV, his unique chest is AR (fourth vow) and employs an Armour mechanic.

And yet his increased armour % is 32% which is hard to call "investment". and He has a bunch of EV and hybrid items on and doesn't even have flat AR on his belt.

hmmmm its almost like the point is valid despite the hyperbole/troll title...

BTW a bunch of Ben's characters this league are wearing Lightning coils I wonder why? Damage shifting seems good almost like it might be easier than Armour investment?

Almost like its reasonable to suggest that easier defensive strategies and "low investment" Armour and Block such as you get from Determ+granite or offering block on a necro are way too good.

And maybe that should not be the case? I mean I realize the OP's title makes this a difficult place to have any nuance or serious discussion. Doesn't mean the points invalid.

And it also doesn't mean the EQUALLY troll/nuance free strawmen are warranted.