How to fix melee builds

I dont defend GGG. I just like proving that whenever people complain, its not game problem. Its "you ptoblem". [Removed by Support]

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Aynix wrote:

I dont defend GGG. I just like proving that whenever people complain, its not game problem. Its "you ptoblem". [Removed by Support]

that s one goddam stupid statement.
by that reasonning noone could complain about anything because there are aurabots in this game that will give you almost all defenses, triple daamge and 5 to 10 times cheaper gear because you can remove all those defensives mods from your gear. just play with an aurabot lololol. it s a you problem. solution is so easy. lolol i am so smart.

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Aynix wrote:

I dont defend GGG. I just like proving that whenever people complain, its not game problem. Its "you ptoblem". [Removed by Support]

Still waiting for that proof, though. All I see, is "I think melee is fine, because I like to be different", while ignoring statistics, statement from serious players, history and long-time melee players. Hell, even Mathil is critiquing melee when fighting Ubers, often using the phrase "too melee". And a popular thing in these debates, is to ignore the Uber discussion because it doesn't really fit the "melee is fine" narrative.

We all know "melee is playable" and that "melee can be done". No one is desputing that, and that shouldn't be a question. The question will ALWAYS be how good it is compared to the alternatives, and if there are any solid reasons to go melee instead of those alternatives, both when it comes to speed, clear, single target, scaling, progression, boss design, damage uptime and budget. In my opinion, melee is lacking in several of those areas, especially on a limited budget or as starters.

The melee debate is always "melee is fine if we ignore X, Y and Z in the debate". Lets ignore Ubers. Lets ignore gear dependency. Lets ignore clear speed. Lets ignore X, Y and Z. And it's always a case of using the one FoTM melee skill(s) as an example to define the whole archetype.

Melee is OK. Melee is playable. But for melee to be "fine", "copetetive" or "a solid choice for serious gameply", it needs some tuning, QoL improvements and in most cases; numbers.

Because melee is fine. The problem is equipment access. You see melee is more than fine in terms of dmg and defense on high end. The burst dmg is insane. What melee lacks is dmg uptime. With that you ran into huge problem. The fact that melee fights in bursts you just cant make it to high. You dont want to see any one shots/insta phasing on 10c budget do you? You also cant make melee to tanky either or ascendencies like slayer would just be immortal. So melee is in that stupid crossroad between being either op or underwhelming. So the question is not how to buff melee, its how easy to gear up should it be.

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Still waiting for that proof, though. All I see, is "I think melee is fine, because I like to be different", while ignoring statistics, statement from serious players, history and long-time melee players. Hell, even Mathil is critiquing melee when fighting Ubers, often using the phrase "too melee". And a popular thing in these debates, is to ignore the Uber discussion because it doesn't really fit the "melee is fine" narrative.

I mean you are one of the guys always going on about how ubers are irrelevant "aspirational" content and aren't worth considering. I don't recall any arguments about "melee being fine" that ignored ubers because there is no reason to do that.

Also, what kind of "proof" do you even want? Melee builds doing any fucking content there is? Youtube is full with it. Mathil has done ubers with melee plenty of times despite his complaints.
It's an objective fact that melee is fine, you just need to know what you are doing and the people whining here don't, hence the whining.
The best non melee builds performing better than the worst melee builds is hardly a valid argument to say otherwise and that's what you see here the vast majority of times.
Where people complain that their messed up HS build does low damage and has slow clear compared to some meta TS build. And when you point those people towards boneshatter or frost blades or whatever then they go "doesn't count".

To have a serious debate on this we would need a crystal clear definition of what "fine" actually means and then we would need people to bring up actual examples instead of just empty blabbering about pseudo facts.
I've asked this dozens of times, but why don't you show me one of those crazy ranged/caster builds that's perfectly capable of leaguestarting SSF, with high clear speed, single target and survivability as well as the ability to do ubers and any other content for like 10-20 divines. I'll wait. You demand proof of others, how about you actually bring up facts for a change?

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SerialF wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

I dont defend GGG. I just like proving that whenever people complain, its not game problem. Its "you ptoblem". [Removed by Support]

that s one goddam stupid statement.
by that reasonning noone could complain about anything because there are aurabots in this game that will give you almost all defenses, triple daamge and 5 to 10 times cheaper gear because you can remove all those defensives mods from your gear. just play with an aurabot lololol. it s a you problem. solution is so easy. lolol i am so smart.

No. Its just that if people give ACTUAL feedback, the thread is moved to Feedback section. This is General Discussion. If your "feedback" aka complaints were not moved there, even GGG thinks its just whining.

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Phrazz wrote:

Still waiting for that proof, though. All I see, is "I think melee is fine, because I like to be different", while ignoring statistics, statement from serious players, history and long-time melee players. Hell, even Mathil is critiquing melee when fighting Ubers, often using the phrase "too melee". And a popular thing in these debates, is to ignore the Uber discussion because it doesn't really fit the "melee is fine" narrative.

WHo cares about ubers? Yes, melee is bad for Ubers, but is more than fine for the rest 99.9% of the content in the game. Want a proof? I wont give you any, because I know people like you. You are like flat earthers who will stick with their version even with 100 profs they are wrong. To you as long there will be ANY build in the game that is better than melee, it means that melee is shit. Im playing melee builds pretty much every league and I have plenty of fun with them. I dont need any other "proof".

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kuciol wrote:

Because melee is fine. The problem is equipment access. You see melee is more than fine in terms of dmg and defense on high end. The burst dmg is insane. What melee lacks is dmg uptime. With that you ran into huge problem. The fact that melee fights in bursts you just cant make it to high. You dont want to see any one shots/insta phasing on 10c budget do you? You also cant make melee to tanky either or ascendencies like slayer would just be immortal. So melee is in that stupid crossroad between being either op or underwhelming. So the question is not how to buff melee, its how easy to gear up should it be.

Melee isn't fine if there's an equipment issue. Everything works together.

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jdp29 wrote:

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kuciol wrote:

Because melee is fine. The problem is equipment access. You see melee is more than fine in terms of dmg and defense on high end. The burst dmg is insane. What melee lacks is dmg uptime. With that you ran into huge problem. The fact that melee fights in bursts you just cant make it to high. You dont want to see any one shots/insta phasing on 10c budget do you? You also cant make melee to tanky either or ascendencies like slayer would just be immortal. So melee is in that stupid crossroad between being either op or underwhelming. So the question is not how to buff melee, its how easy to gear up should it be.

Melee isn't fine if there's an equipment issue. Everything works together.

If having to get equipment is an issue for you then you should ask yourself whether ARPGs are the correct genre for you.

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Aynix wrote:

Want a proof? I wont give you any, because I know people like you. You are like flat earthers who will stick with their version even with 100 profs they are wrong. To you as long there will be ANY build in the game that is better than melee, it means that melee is shit. Im playing melee builds pretty much every league and I have plenty of fun with them. I dont need any other "proof".

I don't think I've ever used the word "shit". Melee isn't shit (so please stop putting words in my mouth), I just think it needs some help to be more balanced and accessible through every stage of the game. And you are the one that started talking about how you like to "prove" things, which is the only reason I mentioned it, where in the following post, you say you won't give any. Fitting :)

But if you'll rather bring in personal attacks, I guess that is fine. You go for it, but I won't sink to that level. I'm playing melee every league too, and I'm having fun with it. But I think you're in the same boat as me, while I'm apparently a "flat earther" because I think melee needs some help and won't change my mind, what's the chance that you're a "round erther" and will change your mind that it DOES need help?

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kuciol wrote:

Because melee is fine. The problem is equipment access. You see melee is more than fine in terms of dmg and defense on high end. The burst dmg is insane. What melee lacks is dmg uptime. With that you ran into huge problem. The fact that melee fights in bursts you just cant make it to high. You dont want to see any one shots/insta phasing on 10c budget do you? You also cant make melee to tanky either or ascendencies like slayer would just be immortal. So melee is in that stupid crossroad between being either op or underwhelming. So the question is not how to buff melee, its how easy to gear up should it be.

I find it funny that you start off by stating "melee is fine", then go on to highlight some of melee's biggest problems. How can it be fine when melee finds itself in a "stupid crossroads" and "lacks in damg uptime" as well as "equipment access problems"?

I swear, people read the word "melee needs some love/buff/help/QoL" and only think numbers. "Buff" is more than numbers. Better access to equipment would be a buff to melee. Better boss design with melee in mind would be a buff to melee. Better self-scaling skills in the early game would be a buff to melee.

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Aynix wrote:

WHo cares about ubers? Yes, melee is bad for Ubers, but is more than fine for the rest 99.9% of the content in the game. Want a proof? I wont give you any, because I know people like you. You are like flat earthers who will stick with their version even with 100 profs they are wrong. To you as long there will be ANY build in the game that is better than melee, it means that melee is shit. Im playing melee builds pretty much every league and I have plenty of fun with them. I dont need any other "proof".

So your proof is, that you don't need any because one dude you don't like called you out? And yeah we see your hexblast miner melee - he stronk. Or maybe you talk about your 300 div flicker build? Or the build from the dark ages before damage nerfs?

Lets talk about facts:
Fact is (at least posted on poe.ninja) in the 20 mostly played builds there are 3 melee skills: boneshatter, cylcone and Frenzy.
Frenzy? its mostly used with bowbuilds as manaforged arrow link, not as a melee skill. Actually I have yet to find al melee user of frenzy there.
cyclone? about 15% of the builds are actually dealing damage with cyclone and don't use it as a spell trigger.
So there is actually only ONE! melee skill in the top 20 played skills, this is a quite strong indicator that melee is, indeed not fine or competitive. At least for the general player. You wanna be the special snowflake? No problem, there thousands strange builds out there, but wishing this for a complete archetype, or even worse, not acknowledging the fact that it is the case currently?