Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

I partially agree with N4rk0tyk
Here is one caviat with the non-tradable angle. Its reserved to Quest items and skill books reward.
Depending on how the game engine is made, there is a good chance they would need to change the item tags.

It boils down to "Spend time to chance a major part of the engine and make sure it only affects harvest" or "Spend time to nerf harvest to the ground so less people use it"
One of them is very risky and might cause a lot of unexpected issues, the other will just anger 80% of the player base for a few months.

From a pure Risky reward stand point. Bad nerfs will cause people to be angry (no shit sherlock), but can be calmed down later and won't generate extra cost in the short term.
Broken engine can generate a lot of extra cost and still anger people, because of delays it might generate and if they still release it on time while broken (because gamers are known for their patience), they will be even angrier "Game broken, fix noaw! Its easy, just press fix button"

Harvest should have not been touch at all, right now it is a lose-lose situation they cornered themselves in.
To be completly fair, how are they suppose to keep the game challenging without making the whole game feel like a rocket tag?
They, unfortunately, already let go on to be just that. Now they are trying to figure out how to make gear aquisition harder.

One of the best solution, would be to make buff underused skills and classes, without buffing the other. This would leave even the playing field without needing ridiculous items to make unpopular build work, not powerful, just working.

"

Vandurman wrote:

447 pages and 0 GGG answers

They are obviously waiting for the storm to pass, I mean they know people will eventually forget about harvest, the only thing they need to do it wait.

And maybe improve the client performance, that would be great.

"

Vandurman wrote:

447 pages and 0 GGG answers

They answered. It's on page 1.

And they surely have better things to do than repeating the same, perfectly clear explanation to 500 pages of morons with poor reading skills.

"

Azarhiel wrote:

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

I've beat sirus before with 300K DPS. Cant speak on maven I suppose her vortex's would pollute screen too much with a zDPS build. anyway most fights are about not making mistakes not DPS. One dude beat uber elder at lvl 30 a few leagues back... Anyway, DPS just make it easier because mistakes dont compound nor flasks run out.

As far as Harvest the most powerful mods have no tiers like explody ... just add phys until you get it and meld on another OP influence with wakening orb so stop pretending like tons of RNG is involved. Most powerful mods have 1 or 2 tagged tiers you just add/remmove and GG. Phys weapons with like 14 tiers and 3 phys mods needed are the big exception and are hard to make even with harvest. As you are on older player you should understand RNG and grinding is what we signed up for not add remove the item editor Harvest is.

As an older player with a 70h week job and some other duties in real life i can't commit to play more than what i did over two month and being burnt out in the process...

Yes for some parts harvest is a way to edit you item, but never prevent you from making a mistake and ruining your gear so it is not an item editor per se.

I make mistakes because i'm not 25 yo and i don't have the reflex to dodge sirus shit all the time.

I don't mind RNG in loot and grinding as i do just that on RPG's, but i do mind that a crafting system is not a gambling system, and in PoE, everything outside of harvest is only gambling for now.

The only way the orb system could complement a crafting is by narrowing down the tiers of mods depending on ILVL, but it will never be a crafting system as a whole.

And on a side note :

Everything in harvest is random (wrote in every line of every carft i saw)
Gardens are random
Seeds are random

So i don't know you can't see the layers of RNG in Harvest, but i do see them and make it a middle ground but not yet good enough crafting system.

Last Epoch as a pseudo deterministic crafting system with mods (Max tier) not being able to be crafted
Chronicon has a pseudo deterministic crafting system and you can lock mods in place.

Those does not make those games less attractive and more casual... (And i allready play both of those but don't have the same appeal that of PoE)

Wait. You have a 70h work week yet play 5hrs per day?

Interesting. Let us do the math here [Removed by Support]

70hrs/week breaks down to 14hrs per day.

Topping up your 5hrs per day to play the game that gives us:

19hrs/day that you are busy with work/gaming. Leaving 5hrs of sleep per day.

Assuming you don't just fall asleep straight away, we are looking at 4.5hrs of hypothetical sleep/day.

But wait there is more!

You will likely have to eat/shower/get ready/get to work so that is roughly another hour.

Meaning you have about 3.5hrs of sleep/day.

Sure. Sounds totally feasable, realistic and likely something most casual gamers do that have real jobs and a family.

You then also find the time in all of that to navigate to the forums and repeatedly post non-sensical, boo-hoo- "My ice trap fire pen molten shell glacial cascade caustic arrow miner" build is not possible anymore now.

yea makes sense.


Edit: Now I could be mistaken and you meant 70hrs week as in 70hrs/7 days. Maybe things work different where you live. [Removed by Support]

The amount of crazy and utter nonsense/tinfoil level is surreal with this.

People comparing a small NZ company to the likes of Blizzard. There is hushed talk about some sort of disconnect between the customer and company.

Chris is the Antichrist they say.
GGG is a bad business and a bad company they say.

You remind me of a child whose toy has been taken away and throwing a tantrum.

Despicable toxic content creators start playing other ARPGs and making comparative videos between PoE and those games because oh no harvest nerf further adding to the childish behaviour.

Then there is the army of trogolodytes arguing that harvest is the only thing feasable and the rest is lottery. Even some beta cave dwellers come crawling out their musty tombs pretending to know stuff just coz they played the beta.

Heck. I first played PoE via Steam when there was barely 3 Acts. No idea what version that was.

Do I know stuff because of that? Nah.

Crafting, if you know what you do, has only a degree of randomness and so it should for crying out loud.

Besides there is other "awesome" games coming out.

Remember the company you all hate so much and that actually has a disconnect to their customers and has a horrible reputation and shitty business practices? Yea that one! The same one revamping the same game from 20 years ago and giving it a fresh set of clothing.

Best game ever am I right?

You are so gullible that any company on the planet could drain all your money by simply doing that. Made shit games in the past? Meh dun matter.
Overpriced a lot of titles and hides stuff behind DLC paywalls? Meh dun matter.

Underpays employees? Meh dun matter.

All is forgiven for making another iteration of the same thing from 25years ago. I mean? Pathetic.

You focus on harvest crafting and simply hate on GGG, hate on their founders and employees, yet have no clue why.

Instead of looking for an open conversation and bringing up logical critique/suggestions, you figuratively barge in, scream, yell, throw stuff around and expect immediate gratification. Why should players who play more than you do have better stuff? Why huh? You should have that too with your (Im lolling writing this) 70hr work weeks and 5 hrs per day of gaming.

Guess what children of the internets and fathers of countless children, husband to many and worker of the month: NO YOU SHOULD NOT.

You want the great stuff? Feel free to sink in your 5k hrs total and deal with playing standard every now and then to get your builds min/max finished or become better at playing and making currency during leagues.

It is not harvest crafting that makes you rise or fall. It is you. But it is nice to pretend it is some ominous thing that you cannot see amirite?

The changes havent even been implemented and yet you run amok. If only you guys were so smart and eager to learn when it comes to the real world like the Corona Virus.


But I suppose that example is too close to home yea? So I leave it be. (also whilst I am ranting: No offense or discomfort to anyone who may have lost someone due to it. Not saying it is harmless just not as crazy as made out to be).

Anyhow. I managed to make myself lose track.

TL/DR you cry to much instead of thinking about things for more than 2 seconds. Also I am right and you are wrong because.
Take a breath, calm the f down and wait and see how "bad" it really will be.
10 bucks you still gonna have fun blasting through stuff.

"

Ruffleberg wrote:

"

DeathProfessorHeisenberg wrote:

Man, don't worry about the hateful comments. It's just an eco chamber. The developer is GRINDING Gear Games, the genre is hack n slash ARPG. Yet people don't want to grind. When they introduced harvest, I quit the game and came back this league after playing for a day or two in other leagues. The game is not for every one, just like Dark Souls isn't for every one. It has a certain model and certain dynamics to it.

The devs knew they were making a huge mistake when they introduced harvest for the first time. The nerfs now SHOULD have been in place before re-introducing harvest this league. Anyways devs are staying true to their original game mentality and design. And it takes heart and balls to do this. Sure they might lose a bit of profit next league but this is good for the game in the long term. And harvest is still very strong, people are just mad because of mob mentality.

It is hard to take your opinion seriously when you main minion builds. Of course you don't need harvest to clear all content.

This is a big issue for sure. Minion builds don't require so much gear to get to t16 but a lot of attack builds require a well crafted weapon just for yellow tier maps. The imbalanced gear requirements for different builds is why Harvest is popular. It makes a lot of otherwise unplayable builds playable (on SSF especially) and affordable.

"

Incarcerated wrote:

"

Ruffleberg wrote:

"

DeathProfessorHeisenberg wrote:

Man, don't worry about the hateful comments. It's just an eco chamber. The developer is GRINDING Gear Games, the genre is hack n slash ARPG. Yet people don't want to grind. When they introduced harvest, I quit the game and came back this league after playing for a day or two in other leagues. The game is not for every one, just like Dark Souls isn't for every one. It has a certain model and certain dynamics to it.

The devs knew they were making a huge mistake when they introduced harvest for the first time. The nerfs now SHOULD have been in place before re-introducing harvest this league. Anyways devs are staying true to their original game mentality and design. And it takes heart and balls to do this. Sure they might lose a bit of profit next league but this is good for the game in the long term. And harvest is still very strong, people are just mad because of mob mentality.

It is hard to take your opinion seriously when you main minion builds. Of course you don't need harvest to clear all content.

This is a big issue for sure. Minion builds don't require so much gear to get to t16 but a lot of attack builds require a well crafted weapon just for yellow tier maps. The imbalanced gear requirements for different builds is why Harvest is popular. It makes a lot of otherwise unplayable builds playable (on SSF especially) and affordable.

Sigh. Any bow skill that scales based on gemlevel...yeah reaaaally needs a well crafted weapon. Couple essences, maybe 1 annul and multimod ready 2 go to t16. Yeah INTENSE crafting required.

And for melee skills and casters there is solid uniques of everything to get going to t16 no worries. Please dont fabricate a load of bs when clearly you have no clue

High crit builds need ofc more yea but so they should. Crit blasting everything on day 2?`come on. You would whine how boring every thing is no 5 minutes later.

I believe a better alternative would be
"We are nerfing the Harvest crafting, but we'll make sure the other builds options won't require that much crafting to be viable. This is to balance necessity of Mirrior tier item for other class/builds"

If this is the intent, I'm all for it. Buff the underused skill/classes so MOST build don't require those improbable items, nerf the harvest in exchange to limit the amount of end-tier items.

This would allow meme builds to work with mirror tier item, without making off-meta build impossible to achieve by the average players.

I believe this is the best approch. But it only works if the Monster do get buff again in return. Wishfull thinking there.

"

Funinyourgame wrote:

I believe a better alternative would be
"We are nerfing the Harvest crafting, but we'll make sure the other builds options won't require that much crafting to be viable. This is to balance necessity of Mirrior tier item for other class/builds"

If this is the intent, I'm all for it. Buff the underused skill/classes so MOST build don't require those improbable items, nerf the harvest in exchange to limit the amount of end-tier items.

This would allow meme builds to work with mirror tier item, without making off-meta build impossible to achieve by the average players.

I believe this is the best approch. But it only works if the Monster do get buff again in return. Wishfull thinking there.

Finally someone with a reasonable, solid suggestion/possible solution.

Thank you. (No Joke.)

"

Fenoch wrote:

"

Azarhiel wrote:

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

I've beat sirus before with 300K DPS. Cant speak on maven I suppose her vortex's would pollute screen too much with a zDPS build. anyway most fights are about not making mistakes not DPS. One dude beat uber elder at lvl 30 a few leagues back... Anyway, DPS just make it easier because mistakes dont compound nor flasks run out.

As far as Harvest the most powerful mods have no tiers like explody ... just add phys until you get it and meld on another OP influence with wakening orb so stop pretending like tons of RNG is involved. Most powerful mods have 1 or 2 tagged tiers you just add/remmove and GG. Phys weapons with like 14 tiers and 3 phys mods needed are the big exception and are hard to make even with harvest. As you are on older player you should understand RNG and grinding is what we signed up for not add remove the item editor Harvest is.

As an older player with a 70h week job and some other duties in real life i can't commit to play more than what i did over two month and being burnt out in the process...

Yes for some parts harvest is a way to edit you item, but never prevent you from making a mistake and ruining your gear so it is not an item editor per se.

I make mistakes because i'm not 25 yo and i don't have the reflex to dodge sirus shit all the time.

I don't mind RNG in loot and grinding as i do just that on RPG's, but i do mind that a crafting system is not a gambling system, and in PoE, everything outside of harvest is only gambling for now.

The only way the orb system could complement a crafting is by narrowing down the tiers of mods depending on ILVL, but it will never be a crafting system as a whole.

And on a side note :

Everything in harvest is random (wrote in every line of every carft i saw)
Gardens are random
Seeds are random

So i don't know you can't see the layers of RNG in Harvest, but i do see them and make it a middle ground but not yet good enough crafting system.

Last Epoch as a pseudo deterministic crafting system with mods (Max tier) not being able to be crafted
Chronicon has a pseudo deterministic crafting system and you can lock mods in place.

Those does not make those games less attractive and more casual... (And i allready play both of those but don't have the same appeal that of PoE)

Wait. You have a 70h work week yet play 5hrs per day?

Interesting. Let us do the math here [Removed by Support]

70hrs/week breaks down to 14hrs per day.

Topping up your 5hrs per day to play the game that gives us:

19hrs/day that you are busy with work/gaming. Leaving 5hrs of sleep per day.

Assuming you don't just fall asleep straight away, we are looking at 4.5hrs of hypothetical sleep/day.

But wait there is more!

You will likely have to eat/shower/get ready/get to work so that is roughly another hour.

Meaning you have about 3.5hrs of sleep/day.

Sure. Sounds totally feasable, realistic and likely something most casual gamers do that have real jobs and a family.

You then also find the time in all of that to navigate to the forums and repeatedly post non-sensical, boo-hoo- "My ice trap fire pen molten shell glacial cascade caustic arrow miner" build is not possible anymore now.

yea makes sense.


Edit: Now I could be mistaken and you meant 70hrs week as in 70hrs/7 days. Maybe things work different where you live. [Removed by Support]

So much ignorance and "intelligence" in one post =)). There are job that require working 24h with 72h free after, like some army employees, or 10-24h/24h, where weekends don't matter because those jobs can't be done in a regular 8h/day interval and also are required to be done over the weekend as well and usually involve some time consuming actions going places, and usually allow for resting time, but require the presence of the employee for the full 10-24h. Your country, whatever it is, has this jobs as well, done by some hard working ppl working in the army, emergency services, water supplying, electrical grid and so on, so that you can brag about your internet and computer in your blissful ignorance ... But you will learn when you grow up ;)