Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

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helldunkel wrote:

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Fenoch wrote:

Hey GGG please make the game more accessible for casual players. i mean like 10 hrs/month so they then can flock and complain when you change something. Havent spent a dime but they promise they will if you give them their favorite toy.

Whilst you are at it, just make it so everyone can finish their items so they can use them forever. But like at the most after 2 days of time invested!

Geezus. I think a vast majority should be playing regular RPGs like Zelda or Final Fantasy. A-RPG clearly arent meant for you.

Well, sorry good chap! I work full time, have a wife, family, other hobbies, and still want to give endgame bosses a go! I might not play 40h/week like you, so of course a miserable pleb like myself doesn't deserve a chance to have fun!

- Sarcasm, of course.

Oh, and I have spent more than a couple bucks without any other incentive other than liking the game. I would do so again if I keep liking the game, but changes like this make it hard to do so. Again, so sorry for inconveniencing you, hardcore lord of truth, with my casual pleb suggestions :)

Like me good Sir? Have you even bothered to look at my toons for this league?

See anything crazy expensive? Nope. Coz not needed. I have beaten every content in the game as is.

You do not have to fight Sirius A8 to fight against end game bosses in a league?

If you have that little time play Standard? Nobody forcing you to play league and expect to whip that endgame ass all day long.

Why cant people like yourself get it in their heads that item-farming ARPGs might not be the greatest choice for games to play for married, hard working adults?

It is not that hard. You can also just shift your focus. Even in your situation with less time you can get to endgame WITHOUT harvest crafting and minimal time investment. It requires you to learn things about the game. Literally JUST playing it is enough. Even with (Idk what your time constraints are) 1 hr a day or even every 2 days.

Knowledge is key. Aspiring to make your absolute own build and items theory crafting on pob in your situation may not be the smartest choice. However, if that is what you want to do then you should expect failure or less success.

Whether you play 1hr or 20hrs a day, goals are your own.

You wanna play against some endgame bosses? Well watch some youtube and simply pick a skill you like and find a build for it. Follow the guide and just play the game. Even chisel and alch is enough to allow you to upgrade step by step. Mirror tier items are what they are. A Diamond in a box of sand not for everyone.

I and my 200hrs a day dont have mirror tier items and guess what? Still fun.

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Ghostseer wrote:

You people didn’t quit the game due to the pre-Harvest crafting system.
Would be hilarious if you quit because the crafting is going back to that in a small way.

GGG can do nothing right in the playerbase’s eyes when it comes to nerfing anything (look at the latest ascendancy changes threads). The design team at GGG do fantastically, I’m sure there is a fix for the crafting system that simply doesn’t have room for the current Harvest crafting power.

Ok. Can we have the damage, HP, etc of mobs go back too? My issue is they have already made the changes for these items (you know, the balanacing).

Also, your faith is their future decisions doesn’t seem to go with the last manifesto...

I thought GGG is fighting RMT as hard as they can.

But this change clearly shows that they prefer to help 0.1% in their RMT mirror-service hegemonia which was since beta.

It's very unfortunate to see, how your favourite studios dip in ... mud. First Bethesda, then Blizzard, now GGG is just pleasing some strange individuals, that clearly have no vision and clue how Game should work. You cut the game to please those tryhard-nolifers, that will play your game no matter what. Listening to those "close eyes and slam", man those are words of person who never reached maps or slammed anything with exalt, obviously. One of those "ideas" which sound kinda cool, but in practice are absurd.

Listening to streamers like raizQT is such mistake, cause those only sees how he (personally) wants to play the game, not how its should be from objective sight of view.

I dontlike tryhard, i like to chill. I dont like HC, never played it, never going to be playing, its absurd. HC for me isnt even real PoE, it's like Ego Booster for minority.

GGG going back to times, when people just quitted whole game, cause 4h a day wasnt enough to legit reach endgame w/o RMT. Even tho i never needed it, it was such boring and pointless grind Docks to reach maps...

If you want to "make game better", why dont bring back times when we farmed docks? Delete all this Delve, Heist, you know, cause currency is very affordable in there.
And delete fossils, cause they make crafting so easy.
Delete essences, cause they make game too easy.
Delete chaos orbs+exalts, cause its too easy to craft gear - gear should be asquired though picking loot from the ground and identifying it.
Also great would be delete SoftCore, cause all true PoE lovers play HardCore.
And, just delete harvest complitely, cause no-one you will be left with would not care if you do all this changes, those nolife players will still play your game.

Clearly what i see, is that PoE is becaming PaytoWin game, where main moneymakers will be those nolife-tryharders which will just take control of market and make monopoly.

Never though GGG will feed those individuals, but it seems to go that way, 2-4h/day players will never reach anything, like endgame, and there is where i drow the line.

I suggest to players open their eyes, and decide, do they want to play PayToWin game, or not.
I'm going to move on.

This is video from a full-day streamer, with objective point of view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdpA_xHXhEA

Huge step backwards

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N4rk0tyk wrote:

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Fenoch wrote:

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noheal wrote:

this is a really crazy change...


I hope they take this feedback, and focus on fixing the game performance rather tham nerfting the few features players like.

So you joined the game 8 years ago, havent spent a single dime except maybe for a stashtab. Yet you opt in to complain after playing a free game for 8 years not spending a single cent.

Just wow.

And how is his opinion any worse than opinion of someone who spent money? He has a right to be equally concerned as anyone else. There are civilized countries where average monthly salary is less than 600$, you think that it is somehow easy to come up with 60$ for online game?

I am 100% against this change to harvest, I think it is ggg bending their knees to TFT discord as someone said on Reddit. Instead of fixing an issue with craft trading they are trying to make harvest complete junk.

Now, please feel free to invalidate my opinion based on amount of money I’ve spend on supporting this game, but I will give you fair warning, it’s over 3000$ and there is plenty more in my wallet to be spent but I think that if this nerf will be going live as is they will not see a dime from me at least.

How you ask ?

Simple:

Imagine you give me a free tangerine or 2. I eat it. Then tell you it wasnt as tasty as I had hoped and I would like you to now give me 10 Euros for my effort.

Hint: It is a metaphor.

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Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it.

This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."

Sorry Chris, these are viewpoints are antiquated. They describe gambling, not crafting.
All they accomplish in this manifesto is to signal to the community just how out of touch GGG is.

More troubling for me is this -- with the re-introduction of Harvest in the Ritual League, I really thought you were taking the player base in a specific, carefully chosen direction for crafting.

A re-cap (& my reactions):
GGG
... introduced Harvest but had misgivings about crafting being too deterministic -- ok, fair enough
... took harvest out of the game and then started planning its reintroduction later -- good, no knee jerk changes, time to evaluate and plan properly
... reintroduced Harvest -- awesome
... and very shortly thereafter, nerfed Harvest to smithereens -- wait, what???

Adding my recommendation to listen to Matth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdpA_xHXhEA

And that should have been the title of this manifesto: Meaningful crafting only for the 1% again.

The harvest nerf would have made some sense if there was anything resembling crafting other than the current crafting bench. Everything is mostly gambling. The only thing that is affected is how bad the odds are. PoE could be so much greater in its vision if there are ways for utilizing knowledge and skill in crafting.


RNG definitely has a core place that can make the game fun but most currency has like 0.1% chance to give a relevant output. And for a BIS result its probably 0.01% considering the pool of mods. Thats basically impossible. If there was the exact same item to have to slam an exalt on, it would take 10000 exalts to get BIS item and atleast a few hundred before getting a semi acceptable result. And thats only for 1 mod. Anyone who uses an exalt with the intention of crafting and item when trade is available is just being irrational. I don't understand how anyone can feel excited about using exalts or especially chaos.

In D2 the most exciting parts of crafting were very deterministic but grindy - runewords. With the number of axes of variations possible in PoE it has not been exciting to use basic currency for a really long time.

Fennoch I'm not entirely sure if you're a troll or not, but you seem to be.

I haven't enjoyed the game a lot lately before harvest crafting became a thing, and I haven't even crafted myself, just enjoying the availability of items on the market, even late into a league, where it normally would be dead and you'd barely find anyone playing.

You talk so much about money that it makes me wonder if you think that criticising a free game even if you never spend money on it is not allowed. If you spend a lot of time in a game you get a feeling for what is a good change of moving forward and what isn't.

I have spent nearly as much money as I have hours in the game, am I allowed to criticise the game, or do I need to have bought every single supporter pack and own every single MTX to talk about a game I fell in love with again after nearly a year break because it had become very tedious to play?

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helldunkel wrote:

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Fenoch wrote:

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namespace wrote:

Breaking my many, many year forum silence to point out that this kinda sucks. All this is doing is, one again, catering to the absolute top 0.01%, streamers and 15 hour a day players, complaining that the plebs may perhaps get a chance to get some ok items; Not mirror-tier (come on lol) but like, influence and some good rolls.

It's weird how progress like shards are good, but progress like tinkering on an item without bricking it is bad? I guess thanks for saving me the MTX costs by posting this early, I and friends were getting back into the game because filthy casuals such as ourselves with only 1-3 thousand hours were actually able to build some neat stuff without being 100% glued to the meta and just trading all day.

And as others said, "This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." - This is AWFUL this is "Don't you have phones" no one does this I have been playing since alpha and I've exa slammed like... A jewel once with three good mods because I just didn't care about mod4 because of an odd build.

Same goes for you. Many many many years of enjoying a free game. Yet you feel the need to jump on the complaint bandwagon. Cool-. You should know better and know that this not even half as bad as the crying babies make it look to be.

So, you're just being antagonistic because... reasons? Regardless of the status of the game as F2P or how many bucks have you spent on it, you are entitled to an opinion about it, about the changes it undergoes, and how they affect your ability to play and enjoy the game. That, my antagonistic non-friend, is called feedback. And it's something GGG DESPERATELY needs to listen to. Filtering random comments antagonizing other players, like yours :)

Not really. I just dont think that this breaks the game for anyone at all.

The game is in such a fantastic place right now that even as a casual player and WITHOUT harvest you can nearly do all the content that is on offer.

Sure. You cannot play vaal molten shell moltenstrike cold to fire conversion inquisitor as it wont be feasable but there are SO MANY different builds out there, with fantastic guides and incremental item recommendations it makes the game a breeze.

Harvest was about to brick the game.

Take a market: Ups and downs yes? Economy? yes.

Now give everyone a solid chance to get perfect items for their respective builds.

What happens to the market? It dies. Literally only mirror items would be for sale as nobody would need anything else but.

Everyone smashes every boss in the game in seconds. Powercreep, moneycreep.
End of PoE. Just like D3 and just like many others before. Perfect items should be a thing of beauty, not a thing of a socialist commune.

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Fenoch wrote:

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helldunkel wrote:

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Fenoch wrote:

Same goes for you. Many many many years of enjoying a free game. Yet you feel the need to jump on the complaint bandwagon. Cool-. You should know better and know that this not even half as bad as the crying babies make it look to be.

So, you're just being antagonistic because... reasons? Regardless of the status of the game as F2P or how many bucks have you spent on it, you are entitled to an opinion about it, about the changes it undergoes, and how they affect your ability to play and enjoy the game. That, my antagonistic non-friend, is called feedback. And it's something GGG DESPERATELY needs to listen to. Filtering random comments antagonizing other players, like yours :)

Not really. I just dont think that this breaks the game for anyone at all.

The game is in such a fantastic place right now that even as a casual player and WITHOUT harvest you can nearly do all the content that is on offer.

Sure. You cannot play vaal molten shell moltenstrike cold to fire conversion inquisitor as it wont be feasable but there are SO MANY different builds out there, with fantastic guides and incremental item recommendations it makes the game a breeze.

Harvest was about to brick the game.

Take a market: Ups and downs yes? Economy? yes.

Now give everyone a solid chance to get perfect items for their respective builds.

What happens to the market? It dies. Literally only mirror items would be for sale as nobody would need anything else but.

Everyone smashes every boss in the game in seconds. Powercreep, moneycreep.
End of PoE. Just like D3 and just like many others before. Perfect items should be a thing of beauty, not a thing of a socialist commune.

You sound like a person who never played Path of Exile.