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" No, what's irritating is players and guide-makers who consistently play level 100 chars with 500+ exa worth of gear and jewels and years worth of gathering understanding of mechanics not taking into consideration the VAST MAJORITY of us folks who only ever make it to the low-mid 90's levels with a fraction of worth of gear and currency you guys have, and that we too are trying to make sense of your guide rationale and gather understanding of mechanics rather than just be mindless lemmings. And then when we question clearly questionable details, we get patronized and told to just accept everything you've said as fact. Because, ya know, you guys who make guides are apparently infallible and never make mistakes, and we're "irritating" if we think we've found a mistake or want to make sense of game mechanics, too. Your test is bunk. The TR vines/DoT don't have a hit chance/"on hit" function. Therefore the test using golden rule/poison can't possibly be precise. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that before you acknowledge it and stop avoiding it or posting pictures of gems about your accuracy and chance to poison. Again, those reflected poisons only tell us that either your arrows HIT or the pod explosions HIT. Hence, poison on HIT. They can't possibly tell us if and how many vines/DoT's were applied. AND AGAIN, it was also a moving target who very well could have been moving in and out of range of the pods. You point me to the TR PoE Wiki page, and then when I study the sites that the wiki page cites/links to explain/confirm TR mechanics, you tell me it's "false". You've been inconsistent about this from the start of replying to me. First you agreed that the arrows, in relation to your mouse pointer, land in the same radius/diameter as what's showing in PoB for the vines and explosions, but then everything I read that was cited by the TR PoE Wiki says that is not the case. The radius of pod placement is LARGER than the radius of vine/DoT/explosion range. As a result, THIS is precisely why increasing AoE (trying to get DoT AoE == pod placement AoE) increases DPS because this increases chance of DoT application, and therefore, overlap. Which again means that your experiment against a moving target is clearly questionable. Hence why I said the test should have been done against a stationary target with a huge hit box like Kitava. Something you have yet to clarify is what you believe the precise radius of pod placement is. And remarkably, if/when we know that exact radius, we can then do very precise math that is irrefutable. Pod area radius / DoT radius == "overlap rate" <<=== FACT ie. If you had 7 pods that drop within a radius of 30, and you only had a DoT radius of 28, this would mean you only have a 93% "overlap rate". This means you would multiply your total pods (# of arrows * pod duration * attack rate) by your "overlap rate" to get the amount of ACTIVE pods that can possibly be in range and doing damage. You then multiply that number by your DoT "per pod" average damage number (which PoB accurately provides), and POOF, there is your final DoT DPS (without mirage archer, which is just as easy to factor into that equation). We know the DoT/explosion radius, we know attack speed (thus we know mirage archer attack speed), we know number of projectiles, and we know our DoT "per pod" average damage (thus we know mirage archer DoT "per pod" average damage). Believe it or not, once we know the exact area/radius of arrow/pod placement, with all those things I can tell you EXACTLY what your final DoT DPS is. And I can already tell you right now that it's more than what the DoT DPS shows in PoB. I've also done a similar test with golden rule/poison reflection for a ball lightning build. I confirmed that ball lightning has a max of 13 hits with slower proj while the guy who made the guide was insisting it could do 20 hits. I proved him wrong, and now everyone in that guide thread is clear that ball lightning can only hit 13x and they can all properly calculate their damage. You guys are not infallible. Last edited by SkylerOG#3817 on Aug 21, 2020, 9:57:30 AM
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" This is anecdotal at best. You're on a char that's level 98-100 with insanely good gear that has obscene amounts of +% DoT Multiplier, +% chaos damage, + gem levels, and 2 sets of perfect cluster jewels that include multiple wicked pall's/student of decay and tempered arrows/broadside, crazy good jewels, and a near perfect watcher's eye worth a small fortune. I do active searches every day for things for this build like what you have and they either don't exist or they are worth hundreds of exalts and are completely unattainable. When I swap out my 6 exa rare bow for my Quill Rain, the rare bow does noticeably more damage and kills things faster. The math I've done also shows the rare bow being significantly more DPS than the Quill Rain. So why are they similar in your video? Don't know exactly. I'm guessing it's because you have insane gear and jewels everywhere and EVERYTHING dies in seconds to your char no matter what bow you're using. Maybe you got a handful of crits, or the moving mob stayed in your DoT radius longer in one vs the other, or maybe the damage RNG Gods just blessed you in one and crapped on you in the other. We'll never know. But what I do know is it's frustrating when you're trying to have fun by trying to gain understanding of the game and you're condescended by elder players who aren't proving reliability as much as they insist they are. Last edited by SkylerOG#3817 on Aug 21, 2020, 8:45:01 AM
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repeated post, ignore it ty.
I cast remi - a very beginner friendly guide : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2866127 Support me if you want to! ttv/remicaster1 Last edited by Remicaster1#7723 on Aug 21, 2020, 8:58:39 AM
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Spoiler
" Before I start my comment, here are a few things I would like to address 1. I am not here to pick a fight, nor i am here to create a drama. 2. I apologize for any behavior or comment or sentence of mine that will or have or offended you, including the comments from the past. As that is never my intention. With that being said, imma start. Do you know why it is difficult to maintain a guide? It's because constant new stuff is coming in and out and we never will know. And I never told you that you "must" accept this, what I'm telling you is the results from my research, and I show it to you. Is it a fact or opinion? Your judgement. Aight before I go down to there I want to clarify that I am not here to teach you how you should play, my guides are more like "Here is what I've studied, and this is what I recommend". If you think +3 bow is better in your case, then by all means go ahead. " The target can move means the target will always be moving? I mean clearly on the video I have forced him stopped moving by standing right below him, forcing him to lock at his position when he is casting spells. And again creating a controlled environment is not easy. Kitava is a special case for a boss that have the largest hitbox and never moves, I doubt that there will be more than 100 people that actually likes Belfry / Lava Lake map. I don't feel that that is a reasonable place to conduct research as 99.9999999% of the boss aren't the same as Kitava. Besides that, I think general monsters should share the same hitbox as that Beach map boss, hence it's a reason why I've chosen it. Besides that I do understand the hit and DoT function, but my point is the explosion Hit radius and vines reach radius is the same. Why is that? Because I am fairly sure there will be multiple options for you to choose on the PoB to determine the area if the Explosion Hit and the Vines Reach is different. So tl;dr, they should be the same, SHOULD. Hence I concluded that explosion = vines reach ; explosion poison hit = pods vines overlap. Again, from my testings and research, the explosion on hit range is the same as the vines reach range, hence the number of self poisoned via golden rule should be the amount of pods that overlapped on the same target. If you want to prove me wrong by all means go ahead, you know what you should do if you want to prove me wrong. I won't hesitate to change my guide to the correct / up to date ones. Even then, If I set my explosion right now to 7, the damage numbers doesn't felt like the same. It's like someone saying that "I have 30M dps" but the video shows that the life of the boss drain slower than a 5M dps buid. It just doesn't feel right either (this is an example). Tr chance to hit and DoT is different, well I do agree on this one, because my guide did said that the chance to hit and DoT are both different in mechanics, but they share the same radius from what I've seen. "Stop posting....", I mean that's just only 1 picture. Because you're saying that my chance to hit is 86%, so that's to prove that I used a different gem setup for my research to ensure my results are absolute. Now again for moving targets, I stand close to him so he will not move, then fire a TR to perform the test. Did he moved during the test? Yes he did, but did he moved during all of the fire shots I made? No. And did I hit 6 overlap? Yes, because I attacked slightly too fast, but did I ever hit 7 overlap (because that's what the reddits says)? No. Hence why I concluded that. " I never stated that, that's basically putting words to my mouth. I searched back through the discussion we have and I didn't found that I've stated that. The closest to that statement from what I've said is "Conc effect does not "squeeze" or make the pods "stick" closer together. It just reduces the AoE. Only lesser arrows will do that. Same goes to Increase AoE. It only increases the AoE, it does not increase the spread (I've explained this on mechanics section too)" That's my assumption for what makes you think I've stated that i guess. I don't think I need to repeat why I don't think Kitava is a suitable target do I? But if you really want me to test it, you gotta wait for couple of weeks as I am busy during these few days unless I manage to make room for myself. I will be performing the test on stream if you want. " Ok this might have confused you, so I apologize for that confusion I made. What I said is false is the "Overlapping of the pods in relation of your AoE". What makes me think it is false? First of all, the numbers doesn't fit my experience (explained above) Secondly, the overlapping is far too off (I've tried Woke Inc AoE, which is x3.1 AoE mod, 31 raidus, and I hit 6 self poison so I can clearly conclude that it can't be 7 overlaps). So when one part is false, I had to say the rest of them are false. This goes only to the reddit thread in terms of AoE and Overlap relations. " The intended league for this build is on Softcore Trade, not Standard League, the prices will be different no matter what. Here is my search for the most expensive jewel I bought https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Harvest/X3rby3RuP - On League https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Standard/X3rby3RuP - On Standard. In case you don't know why it is different, lemme explain. Due to the insanely low amount of players playing in standard, obtaining items are no easy task, this includes getting Unique items. Cold Iron Point (not related to this build) https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Standard/eR6oy8ghL https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Harvest/eR6oy8ghL So prices for STD will always be 10 times more expensive. " If that's what your results are then by all means use it. Why they are similar goes down to how similar to your build compared to mine. If you went with your variation of setup, ofc you cannot compare your build with mine because it is obviously different. Even you think that certain parts can be changed won't be a big effect, it actually will cause a huge effect. I did analyzed the video, the only difference is I can point out is the wither effect lasted longer for the Quill Rain than the +3 bow (you can see the wither totem went down faster for +3). But even then is that a 30ex difference should be? I guess I will need to give certain points why Quill Rain is better than +3 bow but I will explain it right here for your sake. 1. +3 bow is difficult to obtain To craft that +3 bow, it is a pain in the ass, has been confirmed by multiple people as RNG can screw you hard on this one. 2. Price quill rain is only 1c excluding the +1 arrow. Even then obtaining the +1 arrow corruption is not as difficult and expensive compared to crafting a +3 bow. 3. Experiences Quill Rain has a faster attack speed, on mapping it will be smoother to play with, it attacks faster and you move a lot faster. This also reduce your casting animation delay. Hence Quill Rain would feel a lot better in terms of enjoyment. 4. Quill Rain is hard to compete As you can see, +3 bow barely outperforms the Quill Rain, that's a 30ex difference. Should there be even a competition to begin with on a 30ex bow and a 1c bow? I never said I am better than you at any point of time, nor did I said your ideas are trash or anything. When you said about your TR totems, I just stated why wither totem would be better and why you shouldn't use TR totems because you seemed too into it without looking at the downsides so I just share some to you. If I think i am 100% right at everything, I would say your setup is trash, but did I? I just said that I personally dislike that particular setup but I didn't say it is bad tho? " I believe that the "3.11 Final" is at the bottom left side which stated "Final lvl 98 Tree" which means the final points you are going to spend for a lvl 98 Tree. Simple as that, if you got misunderstanding or unsure you can just state it. My PoB will never be final as new information will come in and out so I had to optimize it. Just recently there's a guy noted me that my tree can be more efficient cus I wasted a few points, I noticed that, thanked him and changed my tree. And hence why the new PoB is updated. I do not have much time for the next few days, if you do want to ask questions, please sum it up and simplify it because I don't really want to waste a long time looking at a wall of text to find your main point. I do want to leave you a reply, but the longer your reply gets the longer mine has to get and the more time I have to spend to leave the reply (Just like this one). And because I was prioritizing replying you I got distracted on my work and now I had to rush it (Though I do not blame you for this, but you get my point). Edit : I realized my reply is legit too long, so I just gonna throw a spoiler so that this reply doesn't hog the whole page. I cast remi - a very beginner friendly guide : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2866127 Support me if you want to! ttv/remicaster1 Last edited by Remicaster1#7723 on Aug 21, 2020, 8:59:25 AM
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"I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond and sorry if I appear to be getting frustrated, too. It looks like you were responding while I was in the middle of editing my post, so you may want to check it again. Especially the part about we need clarification on the radius of TR arrow/pod placement. Because once we know what that is, I swear I can tell you EXACTLY what your DoT DPS is. The threads I linked from Reddit guys (cited by TR PoE Wiki page) say they know what pod placement BASE radius is... (8 + ((Number of projectiles) - 5))) But you're insisting it's different than that. So what we need is to know that number for certain. And if/when we do, I can give you an irrefutable DoT DPS figure and tell you precisely how many arrows you can/should have with your given radius. And it won't be refutable, these will be mathematical certainties. Also, I didn't realize you had updated/changed your "3.11 final" PoB just 2 days ago. I was going by the one I imported from sometime last week, which was obviously different. So, sorry about the confusion there. Last edited by SkylerOG#3817 on Aug 21, 2020, 9:33:38 AM
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"I shouldn't have to re-do the experiment. If we can get confirmation on the radius of arrow/pod placement, then we have irrefutable math that proves all we need to know. The pod placement radius obviously changes (expands) as you add arrows/projectiles. My logic is telling me that each pod has it's own "unit size" or "box", and when they all come down and land, those boxes from the same "group/attack" essentially all touch from box edge to box edge without overlapping and this forms the pod radius. So when we add arrows/pods, it of course expands that radius. Possibly something like this:  Obvious visual difference in size of radius. And this is also why Conc Effect doesn't do anything to this and only changes the radius of our DoT/explosions. The pod placement "box" is a hard-coded amount of units that can't overlap each other. And there certainly is a formula for this. We just need to know what that is and we can figure everything else out with fairly basic math. The goal is for our DoT radius to match or go over the pod radius, as this would ensure 100% DoT overlap. Hence, as you add arrows being shot, we have to increase AoE to again try to match the radius of the 2. And when your DoT AoE is less than the pod radius, some pods will inevitably be outside the range to reach the target/mob, thus that pod loses it's damage and overlap potential...... UNLESS the mob is mobile and moves into range at some point before the pod duration expires. There IS a way to figure this out without having to record and post some video experiment. Last edited by SkylerOG#3817 on Aug 21, 2020, 12:20:25 PM
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" Yes this is different, I just simply look at my vids where I preload all the pods and compare the area with my flesh and stone. My flesh and stone has a radius of 33, but when I preload my pods they seem to be slightly outside of my flesh and stone. You might say it's because of my cursor placement, but my cursor is in front of me while I am looking at the pods which are behind me, and it still lands slightly outside of flesh and stone. I have a total of 7 projectile, according to that reddit it should be (8+7-5 = 10) which doesn't seem to be the case when my flesh and stone is 33 and there are multiple pods land outside of it. Edit : The video i am referring to is my PF vs Trickster comparison, especially on the Constrictor fight, Wither radius is 25 and look at my pods placement I cast remi - a very beginner friendly guide : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2866127 Support me if you want to! ttv/remicaster1 Last edited by Remicaster1#7723 on Aug 21, 2020, 10:14:57 PM
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" Well I tried, GGG can't 100% confirm this either. But what they told me is the radius varies. Since it varies, the only way we can get to know this finding the maximum pod placement radius, which ALSO varies when you get more arrows. " Someone also asked about the maximum distance a pod could fall from another pod, but they can't give an accurate answer in response, even reading the code. This can be only confirmed by Mark as he is the one that understand the code of this game the most. So what we do? Do the test on our own. Edit : The radius of explosion hit and vines reach radius are the same, confirmed by GGG I cast remi - a very beginner friendly guide : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2866127 Support me if you want to! ttv/remicaster1 Last edited by Remicaster1#7723 on Aug 22, 2020, 12:03:09 AM
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"I'm starting to agree with you because that formula is non-nonsensical after I just illustrated that my logic is telling me each TR pod has it's own unit size. I'm almost convinced this is the case, because it explains so many things, such as the pod placement radius expanding, why Conc Effect has zero effect on pod placement radius, and why adding increased AoE is the process of trying to get DoT AoE radius as close to the pod placement radius as possible, which is why damage goes up with increased AoE. Which means the "formula" is much more simple than what they proposed on Reddit. Logic says it's simply (pod box size * number of pods). Which means the pod box size is very likely 5 units. Hence why at 25 DoT radius, we can seemingly always apply 5 DoT's. But to apply 6 it seems to need 30 DoT radius. Which means to apply 7 it would take 35 DoT radius? It really might just be that simple, but I'm not convinced. That's a huge radius, and this notion doesn't exactly fit with my illustration above. This would also mean PoB is highly flawed since it shows that DoT DPS goes up for every +arrow added/fired, no matter if +AoE is added or not. So I'm not sure what formula PoB is using, but it suggests there is a diminishing scale leading to overlap rate as you add arrows/pods. Which actually does make sense because adding a pod shouldn't equate to precisely X more units for the entire circumference. That's not how the spacing should work. As you can see in my diagram above, adding a 7th arrow didn't expand the diameter a full pod box size, it simply moved them to an efficiently tight grouping only slightly bigger than the 6 arrow illustration. So I don't know. This is wracking my brain. I wish we could just find some confirmation from GGG on how that overlap rate is calculated. It would allow us to much better evaluate how to properly min-max and design this build. Last edited by SkylerOG#3817 on Aug 22, 2020, 12:24:00 AM
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" Tl;dr the overlap per radius is debunked, seems you've finally caught on it. It actually is that simple, if it overlaps? It overlaps, then It counts. We don't really have to look into exact decimals or multiple formulas to make our lives difficult just to get something that can be easily explained. What you're doing it's like finding all the numbers in Pi, you can do that if you are totally curious, but no one is gonna care that much since the first 4 figures of Pi pretty much solves everything. " In short it does expand the diameter, but in a longer explanation it kinda does, kinda doesn't. What caused that is the pod to pod distance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KviL9PwKX4M - This may be your answer For the PoB dps per arrow, no it does not calculate per arrow, it only calculate per overlap and that is manual input. You cannot go 6 overlap when you only have 5 arrows (it just ignores the 6th overlap) and that's it. I've tested this on my PoB. I do think there will be diminishing numbers when scaling AoE and pod arrows, but we don't go too far off the hook because it's diminishing dps boosting as we forget attack speed / gem levels / dot multi / skill duration etc. I cast remi - a very beginner friendly guide : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2866127 Support me if you want to! ttv/remicaster1 Last edited by Remicaster1#7723 on Aug 22, 2020, 4:32:45 AM
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