-

"

SkylerOG wrote:

And with Mirage Archer being 60% less attack rate and 30% less damage, why not just add Efficacy or Increased Duration in it's place and completely blow away anything the Mirage Archer could do?

Mirage archer is really good if you have good APS. I even have a video of a full mirage archer only sirus A8 and it looks like your average sirus kill. So yeah mirage archer is definitely a good support.

That being said, if you are using crafted bows and it isn't an optimal one, chances are that your APS is low and your mirage archer's will be even lower(I've seen people who had like 1.4). In these cases, I think efficacy is a better option as mirage archer is too slow and you're a more consistent source of damage. I honestly think this is one of those how does it feel to play kinda things where you should just test it for yourself and use what you like better.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

"

SkylerOG wrote:

That said, what is the rationale with AoE? Why is Conc Effect frowned upon?

I'm not sure I'm following the reasoning of spreading out TR pods over keeping them closer together. Don't we want to stack them so their damage overlaps more? Wouldn't spreading them out with AoE cause them to overlap less?

And with Mirage Archer being 60% less attack rate and 30% less damage, why not just add Efficacy or Increased Duration in it's place and completely blow away anything the Mirage Archer could do?


Anyway, here's what I'm up to so far: https://pastebin.com/aLR69kEF


Thanks again for all you guy's help.

1. Conc effect does not "squeeze" or make the pods "stick" closer together. It just reduces the AoE. Only lesser arrows will do that. Same goes to Increase AoE. It only increases the AoE, it does not increase the spread (I've explained this on mechanics section too)

2. Mirage archer have 100% DPS uptime, even when you are moving it still attacks. Unlike other support gems where you move, you deal no damage. So you could focus on dodging stuff while mirage archer still deal dmg. Besides that, when you die on certain encounters, Mirage archer will also be there to deal damage until its duration dies off.

1. So is there something posted somewhere that tells us what diameter circumference/radius to mouse pointer TR drops pods?

If our AoE radius number is the max distance each pod’s vines and explosion can reach/travel to contact a mob, then what determines the placement of the actual pods?

Wouldn’t that also logically be your AoE number from your mouse pointer when the arrows are coming down?

I mean visually you can see that the arrows come down at an angle and clearly place randomly around where the mouse pointer generally is located on the screen. If I put my mouse pointer in the NW quadrant, I’m not seeing pods drop in the other 3 quadrants of the screen. They drop where my mouse is.

It feels like we’re just using +AoE to make up for targeting accuracy rather than actually increase damage, no?

If all vines can reach a mob at 22 AoE, then having 28 AoE doesn’t equal more damage, correct?


2. I’m going to crunch some numbers at my lunch break and try to show how TR on a +vicious proj rare bow WITHOUT mirage archer/WITH increased duration & efficacy along with a 6L TR ballista totems on body with withering touch might be a better setup than TR with mirage archer along with a wither totem.

I’ll post it when I’m done with the math.

"

Mazino_Urek wrote:

"

SkylerOG wrote:

And with Mirage Archer being 60% less attack rate and 30% less damage, why not just add Efficacy or Increased Duration in it's place and completely blow away anything the Mirage Archer could do?

Mirage archer is really good if you have good APS. I even have a video of a full mirage archer only sirus A8 and it looks like your average sirus kill. So yeah mirage archer is definitely a good support.

That being said, if you are using crafted bows and it isn't an optimal one, chances are that your APS is low and your mirage archer's will be even lower(I've seen people who had like 1.4). In these cases, I think efficacy is a better option as mirage archer is too slow and you're a more consistent source of damage. I honestly think this is one of those how does it feel to play kinda things where you should just test it for yourself and use what you like better.

My APS is between 4.3-5 depending on if flasks are active and if a rare/unique mob is nearby, and above 5 with vaal haste active.

My bow is decent as it has +gem level, lvl 20 vicious proj, atk spd, DoTM, more atk spd if rare/unique mob nearby. Allows me to do gem setup of TR+void manip+swift affliction+empower+efficacy+increased duration. Plus I’m shooting 7 arrows with helmet TR enchant and +1 arrows on quiver.

Then instead of mirage archer, which attacks at 40% of my APS (so around 1.7-2.2’ish), and does 30% less damage on top of that, I’m doing 5 TR ballista totems, which are attacking at about 2.3-2.7 APS for a combined amount that equates to more than the mirage archer is capable of.

Plus the totems last 8 seconds each (mirage archer lasts about 7.1s), and I can spread them out to effectively increase my AoE spread/overlapping pod coverage. And 5 totems each casting 7 arrows an attack, so that’s like 18x5=90 TR pods with a 25% chance to each apply wither (needless to say, after 2 seconds it's pretty much certain I've applied 15 wither stacks to any boss). Meanwhile I’m launching around 30-35 arrows a second from my bow, too, at quadruple the DPS of the totems.

It just feels like a better setup than dropping single wither totems and relying on +AoE and mirage archer to reach area coverage, pod overlap, do extended duration damage, and apply wither. I don’t need a quill rain or separate wither totem, and I’m pretty confident my DPS is significantly greater as a result.

If I could afford 200 exalts worth of upgrades to gear and bow, I could double my DPS and surpass Remi’s PoB listed DPS by around 30-40% (I posted a PoB last page showing 14M DPS with just my bow), and I still also have ~350% movement speed and higher evasion on top of all this.

"

SkylerOG wrote:

If I could afford 200 exalts worth of upgrades to gear and bow, I could double my DPS and surpass Remi’s PoB listed DPS by around 30-40% (I posted a PoB last page showing 14M DPS with just my bow), and I still also have ~350% movement speed and higher evasion on top of all this.

Remi's pob isn't really a high dps reference. Iirc it's his gear from last league. I'm sure a few people in this thread have 2-4 times the dps in his pob.
Regardless, I'm interested to see how your variant actually performs ingame. Pob is one thing but I'd rather see some gameplay of say Sirus last phase to demonstrate the build's dps.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

2. Mirage archer have 100% DPS uptime, even when you are moving it still attacks. Unlike other support gems where you move, you deal no damage. So you could focus on dodging stuff while mirage archer still deal dmg. Besides that, when you die on certain encounters, Mirage archer will also be there to deal damage until its duration dies off.

So I'm looking at your posted PoB 3.11 Final with maxed out awakened gems and 6 arrows. Shows about 10M DoT DPS using rare bow and mirage archer. Can do around 12M with vaal blight and vaal haste active.

To figure out the DPS of mirage archer we need to break down the bow DPS per 6 arrow set.

12M DoT DPS at 4.64 APS = ~2.6M damage per 6 arrow set.

Mirage archer at 30% less damage = ~1.8M per 6 arrow set (30% of 2.6M). And attack rate is ~1.86 (40% of 4.64 bow APS).

So 1.8M * 1.86 APS = ~3.4M DoT DPS is what mirage archer is capable in your setup.

And if you stop attacking, your mirage archer can persist for around 7 seconds in your setup, which equates to about 23.4M damage.

This is why it's possible to kill bosses like Sirus by simply activating mirage archer and then kiting/running around dodging attacks. Do it about 10x and Sirus dies. Or, if you die while fighting, your mirage archer will stick around and do another 20M or so damage.


So now I've added TR totems to your body and here's what it's capable of...

TR + vicious proj + void manipultion + withering touch + ballista totem + multiple totems = ~1.51M per totem * 5 = 7.55M DoT DPS.

And totems last 8 second each, which is ~60M total damage.

Now the big difference obviously is you have to cast totems and they can be attacked and destroyed. BUT, the cast time is virtually instant, and you typically drop them right before boss fights start or while you're dodging attacks. If you're holding down your bow TR attack and you occasionally hit a TR totem, you almost can't even notice the super tiny interruption.


So mirage archer doing 3.4M DPS vs TR totems doing 7.55M DPS, in your setup. They are effectively the same concept... supplemental duration damage.


Now if you add TR totems to your build, take out mirage archer, and add Efficacy in it's place, your bow TR DPS goes up to 16.5M (+35% MORE), and you've added another potential 4.15M DPS from totems.

That's ~15.4M current potential DPS vs ~24.05M potential DPS with changes.


Here's a PoB with your build (Remi) with my changes: https://pastebin.com/zrZzMm3V

And if you get a quiver with an added arrow, you can add even another 3M or so DPS.

"

SkylerOG wrote:

If our AoE radius number is the max distance each pod’s vines and explosion can reach/travel to contact a mob, then what determines the placement of the actual pods?

Wouldn’t that also logically be your AoE number from your mouse pointer when the arrows are coming down?

I mean visually you can see that the arrows come down at an angle and clearly place randomly around where the mouse pointer generally is located on the screen. If I put my mouse pointer in the NW quadrant, I’m not seeing pods drop in the other 3 quadrants of the screen. They drop where my mouse is.

It feels like we’re just using +AoE to make up for targeting accuracy rather than actually increase damage, no?

If all vines can reach a mob at 22 AoE, then having 28 AoE doesn’t equal more damage, correct?

- Arrow modifiers determines the placement of the pods
- With common sense yeah, but unfortunately it's a no in this game. Wiki also explained this, so I've too.

"

Sources of Increased Area of Effect allow the Damage over Time from each spore to overlap.[4] User testing indicates that increased area does not appear to increase the spore-to-spore distance,[5][2] therefore this should improve single-target damage.

- They do drop on your mouse pointer and I never said it won't. I felt like this is just common sense because you could already notice this the first time you pick up Toxic Rain
- No, Increase AoE will increase the overlap at certain threshold. If not then PF could never outperform Trickster with that 50% inc area in her ascendancy
- Assuming all the arrows have the AoE large enough to overlap on all targets then yes it won't increase the damage anymore. But since from what I've tested, even with my 28 radius it's only actually 5 overlap, the 6th comes from mirage archer and Quill Rain attack speed.

"

SkylerOG wrote:

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

2. Mirage archer have 100% DPS uptime, even when you are moving it still attacks. Unlike other support gems where you move, you deal no damage. So you could focus on dodging stuff while mirage archer still deal dmg. Besides that, when you die on certain encounters, Mirage archer will also be there to deal damage until its duration dies off.

So I'm looking at your posted PoB 3.11 Final with maxed out awakened gems and 6 arrows. Shows about 10M DoT DPS using rare bow and mirage archer. Can do around 12M with vaal blight and vaal haste active.

To figure out the DPS of mirage archer we need to break down the bow DPS per 6 arrow set.

12M DoT DPS at 4.64 APS = ~2.6M damage per 6 arrow set.

Mirage archer at 30% less damage = ~1.8M per 6 arrow set (30% of 2.6M). And attack rate is ~1.86 (40% of 4.64 bow APS).

So 1.8M * 1.86 APS = ~3.4M DoT DPS is what mirage archer is capable in your setup.

And if you stop attacking, your mirage archer can persist for around 7 seconds in your setup, which equates to about 23.4M damage.

This is why it's possible to kill bosses like Sirus by simply activating mirage archer and then kiting/running around dodging attacks. Do it about 10x and Sirus dies. Or, if you die while fighting, your mirage archer will stick around and do another 20M or so damage.


So now I've added TR totems to your body and here's what it's capable of...

TR + vicious proj + void manipultion + withering touch + ballista totem + multiple totems = ~1.51M per totem * 5 = 7.55M DoT DPS.

And totems last 8 second each, which is ~60M total damage.

Now the big difference obviously is you have to cast totems and they can be attacked and destroyed. BUT, the cast time is virtually instant, and you typically drop them right before boss fights start or while you're dodging attacks. If you're holding down your bow TR attack and you occasionally hit a TR totem, you almost can't even notice the super tiny interruption.


So mirage archer doing 3.4M DPS vs TR totems doing 7.55M DPS, in your setup. They are effectively the same concept... supplemental duration damage.


Now if you add TR totems to your build, take out mirage archer, and add Efficacy in it's place, your bow TR DPS goes up to 16.5M (+35% MORE), and you've added another potential 4.15M DPS from totems.

That's ~15.4M current potential DPS vs ~24.05M potential DPS with changes.


Here's a PoB with your build (Remi) with my changes: https://pastebin.com/zrZzMm3V

And if you get a quiver with an added arrow, you can add even another 3M or so DPS.

First of all, I think you are using an older PoB because I just checked my PoB thinking it was some error cus I equipped Quill Rain, not the +3 bow. I do remember equipping the +3 bow for testing purposes but I noted that is a bit "misleading" so I changed the PoB to avoid these confusions.

Tl;dr Mirage archer is roughly 28.5% more Damage, in my newer PoB (18/8 version I believe) I've set it on my Bow.

If you've noticed with efficacy, i need to find something to boost my intelligence, and to get about +30 another Int is no easy job on other leagues. Assuming I scale it down to my int level which is lvl 15, it only gives about 336k more damage, not very noticeable damage increase imo and you lose constant dps uptime.

The only time you are recommended to drop Mirage archer is with a +3 bow with +2 arrows and double inc area on rings.

---------------

Aight thanks for your TR totems suggestion. Though I personally don't like it but I will include on alt. gem setup. Here are my reasons that I don't like the Idea.

1. If you look at my Uber Elder video, look at how fast the totems gets killed. Even your totems have 8 seconds duration, getting killed instantly means it deals no damage.

2. Wither totem ramps up wither stacks faster. It could stack up to 15 pretty fast but Withering touch requires the explosion of the TR to apply and it only has a 25% chance.

On top of that my TR (according from the PoB you gave me) only has 86% chance to hit. So it is roughly 0.25 x 0.86 = 0.215. So on average about 5 arrows in order to land a hit. To ramp up 15 stacks I would need 75 arrows.

Assuming I just rushed and only have 2 totems up which fires 6 arrows, they need to fire about 6.25 times on average to get full stacks, with about 2.3 attack rate, translate to about a little more than 2.7 seconds ((75 / (2*6)) / 2.3). But my wither totem have a cast rate of 4.21 per totem, so I would get full stack in about 1.7 seconds with 2 totems. Don't forget about the toxic rain pods needs to explode in order for all the overlaps to apply else all the 6-7 arrows, you need to wait additional 3 seconds for it to explode to apply the hits. (Initial arrow does hit but it counts as 1. Assuming you have 11 arrows, all the 11 arrows from the initial hit will only count as 1)

Hence, In my opinion it is not worth it. Though I don't disagree with your opinion and I didn't say it's bad. Just in my opinion it is not that great.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

- Assuming all the arrows have the AoE large enough to overlap on all targets then yes it won't increase the damage anymore. But since from what I've tested, even with my 28 radius it's only actually 5 overlap, the 6th comes from mirage archer and Quill Rain attack speed.

This is the one that’s not making sense to me.

I’ve got 7 arrows and 24 radius. I just don’t see how the vines and explosions of all 7 pods aren’t possibly all reaching a mob that’s at the center of my mouse pointer when cast. And if I don’t move my mouse then the next 7 pods should too. And the next 7 and next 7 and next 7.

With my 5.x APS, that SHOULD be 35 stacked and overlapped pods.

And then, with my 3.17 TR duration, I should be doing that 2 more times, for 105 stacked and overlapped pods.

It makes zero sense that any of those pods would land on the ground outside of 24 radius from the center of my mouse pointer and any not be doing damage to that mob standing under my mouse pointer.

Even if my AoE radius were 10, that should hold true.

UNLESS the pods are dropping outside that radius. Or, of course, if we move our pointer or the mob/target moves.

So I don’t understand how your 6 aren’t always overlapping on a stationary target and stationary mouse.

I understand that +AoE certainly helps manufacture overlap in situations where we’re moving our pointer while casting and if the mob is mobile, but again, that doesn’t actually mean +AoE == more damage. It just means + AoE forgives inaccuracy and/or aids vs mobile mobs.

Right?? Or what am I missing?

"

SkylerOG wrote:

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

- Assuming all the arrows have the AoE large enough to overlap on all targets then yes it won't increase the damage anymore. But since from what I've tested, even with my 28 radius it's only actually 5 overlap, the 6th comes from mirage archer and Quill Rain attack speed.

This is the one that’s not making sense to me.

I’ve got 7 arrows and 24 radius. I just don’t see how the vines and explosions of all 7 pods aren’t possibly all reaching a mob that’s at the center of my mouse pointer when cast. And if I don’t move my mouse then the next 7 pods should too. And the next 7 and next 7 and next 7.

With my 5.x APS, that SHOULD be 35 stacked and overlapped pods.

And then, with my 3.17 TR duration, I should be doing that 2 more times, for 105 stacked and overlapped pods.

It makes zero sense that any of those pods would land on the ground outside of 24 radius from the center of my mouse pointer and any not be doing damage to that mob standing under my mouse pointer.

Even if my AoE radius were 10, that should hold true.

UNLESS the pods are dropping outside that radius. Or, of course, if we move our pointer or the mob/target moves.

So I don’t understand how your 6 aren’t always overlapping on a stationary target and stationary mouse.

I understand that +AoE certainly helps manufacture overlap in situations where we’re moving our pointer while casting and if the mob is mobile, but again, that doesn’t actually mean +AoE == more damage. It just means + AoE forgives inaccuracy and/or aids vs mobile mobs.

Right?? Or what am I missing?

So to sum it up you don't understand why doesn't always overlap with the same amount of projectile you have right? Here is your answer

https://streamable.com/4pdsth hopefully this is what you are looking for, it's about overlapping stuff and I only have 5 overlaps. Radius is 28 iirc

Explode range is same as vines range, on the left side of the screen I have poison on it via Golden Rule, 100% chance to poison and hit so the results are always absolute. The numbers of poison means how many pods that actually reached the targets (because it hits the target then it reflect back to me)

This is a testing I've done a while back

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

So to sum it up you don't understand why doesn't always overlap with the same amount of projectile you have right? Here is your answer

https://streamable.com/4pdsth hopefully this is what you are looking for, it's about overlapping stuff and I only have 5 overlaps. Radius is 28 iirc

Explode range is same as vines range, on the left side of the screen I have poison on it via Golden Rule, 100% chance to poison and hit so the results are always absolute. The numbers of poison means how many pods that actually reached the targets (because it hits the target then it reflect back to me)

This is a testing I've done a while back

Except there is an instance in your test where you did apply 6 vines.




I honestly think this is a matter of a moving target, on top of that it appears some TR pods land at the very edge of the AoE radius on opposite sides of the circumference. And this combination causes the occasional pod to be out of range to apply vines.

Another thing to consider is the fact that PoE has a hard-coded damage delivery limit per cast set of .15 seconds. Which means there is a max of 6.67 "hits/damage applications" per set, and I wonder if this also applies to the attachment of vines (and maybe even explosions).

I understand vines don't technically "hit", but that's just a generic term used for "mobs can't take damage from a single damage set more than once every .15 seconds".

Which means that there might be a hard-coded limit of ~6 arrows/pods/vines that can possibly attach per cast set.

And every release of 6 arrows would be considered a separate cast set, so this is how overlap is possible, but it still might explain why the max we saw in your test was 6 reflected poisons.

If this is somehow the case, this might suggest increasing the number of arrows cast won't get you more vine applications, but it might ensure you do always hit the 6 per cast set limit? Or at the very least give you a higher chance of 6 vines getting applied?

Something to consider. Would probably need GGG confirmation on this.