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SkylerOG wrote:

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Remicaster1 wrote:

So to sum it up you don't understand why doesn't always overlap with the same amount of projectile you have right? Here is your answer

https://streamable.com/4pdsth hopefully this is what you are looking for, it's about overlapping stuff and I only have 5 overlaps. Radius is 28 iirc

Explode range is same as vines range, on the left side of the screen I have poison on it via Golden Rule, 100% chance to poison and hit so the results are always absolute. The numbers of poison means how many pods that actually reached the targets (because it hits the target then it reflect back to me)

This is a testing I've done a while back

Except there is an instance in your test where you did apply 6 vines.

That's cus I fired the second part too early, the first part explode then it hits on the target, hence 6 stacks of poison but still 5 overlap actually. If you looked more carefully, the 6 stacks immediately went down to 5 fairly quickly

"

Which means that there might be a hard-coded limit of ~6 arrows/pods/vines that can possibly attach per cast set.

And every release of 6 arrows would be considered a separate cast set, so this is how overlap is possible, but it still might explain why the max we saw in your test was 6 reflected poisons.

I believe this is not the case because it doesn't make sense why Increase Arrow would increase your DPS, I just didn't test another set of increase area further during that time because I didn't bother setting it up as it takes a lot of time to prepare the controlled environment. Also it depends on the monster hitbox too.

Btw I've reached a constant 6 stacks with Woke Inc AoE. I just didn't recorded it

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Remicaster1 wrote:

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Which means that there might be a hard-coded limit of ~6 arrows/pods/vines that can possibly attach per cast set.

And every release of 6 arrows would be considered a separate cast set, so this is how overlap is possible, but it still might explain why the max we saw in your test was 6 reflected poisons.

I believe this is not the case because it doesn't make sense why Increase Arrow would increase your DPS, I just didn't test another set of increase area further during that time because I didn't bother setting it up as it takes a lot of time to prepare the controlled environment. Also it depends on the monster hitbox too.

Btw I've reached a constant 6 stacks with Woke Inc AoE. I just didn't recorded it

You could re-do the test on Kitava in Belfry map. It's a stationary mob with a massive hitbox.

And then instead of doing just one cast and waiting to see how many reflected poisons stack on you, maybe hold TR down and see if you can reach your APS * number of arrows number.

Then get a quiver and bow with +arrows (would bring you up to 8) and see if you can get 7 or 8 reflected poisons applied to you, too.

If not, then I think we very well could concur that the .15 second damage application limit does apply to vines, too.

Also, it’s “poison on hit”. Did you have 100% hit chance during your experiment? And doesn’t hit chance only apply to arrows hit chance and not vines or explosions?

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SkylerOG wrote:

If not, then I think we very well could concur that the .15 second damage application limit does apply to vines, too.

Also, it’s “poison on hit”. Did you have 100% hit chance during your experiment? And doesn’t hit chance only apply to arrows hit chance and not vines or explosions?

I don't need to do test to confirm this, because if what you said is true, Rain of Arrows wouldn't work at all. So there's that.

And yes it is 100% hit and poison on hit as I've stated

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Explode range is same as vines range, on the left side of the screen I have poison on it via Golden Rule, 100% chance to poison and hit so the results are always absolute. The numbers of poison means how many pods that actually reached the targets (because it hits the target then it reflect back to me)

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Remicaster1 wrote:

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SkylerOG wrote:

If not, then I think we very well could concur that the .15 second damage application limit does apply to vines, too.

Also, it’s “poison on hit”. Did you have 100% hit chance during your experiment? And doesn’t hit chance only apply to arrows hit chance and not vines or explosions?

I don't need to do test to confirm this, because if what you said is true, Rain of Arrows wouldn't work at all. So there's that.

And yes it is 100% hit and poison on hit as I've stated

"

Explode range is same as vines range, on the left side of the screen I have poison on it via Golden Rule, 100% chance to poison and hit so the results are always absolute. The numbers of poison means how many pods that actually reached the targets (because it hits the target then it reflect back to me)

Okay, I've been reading up on Reddit threads and playing around with the calculator that's out there.

Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/9ik19a/toxic_rain_calculator_spreadsheet_and_guide/

Calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AHdHs280RyG8Trpfl1zfEdNQRVeFd4SZWypgeQM1wrs/edit#gid=0

And I definitely understand more now what's going on as a result.

There IS a difference in TR arrow disbursement/pod placement "range" vs pod/vine/explosion AoE "radius".

The radius we see in PoB is NOT the radius that applies to TR's internal pod placement range/circumference area/diameter.

Per folks on Reddit who have either tested or confirmed with GGG, the formulas for these 2 features are:

Toxic Rain Radius = 8 + ((Number of projectiles) - 5))

Pod Dot Radius = 4 + (4*Increased Area of Effect)


Therefore this is how you determine "overlap potential":

5 arrows = placement base of 8, and you need +100% AoE (ie. 25 radius) for every pod created to overlap.

6 arrows = placement base of 9, and you need +125% AoE (ie. 27 radius) for every pod created to overlap.

7 arrows = placement base of 10, and you need +150% AoE (ie. 28 radius) for every pod created to overlap.

8 arrows = placement base of 11, and you need +175% AoE (ie. 29 radius) for every pod created to overlap.


So basically, if you don't meet these AoE radius thresholds per number of arrows your build can fire, you're being inefficient and losing tons of potential DPS because your pods are not overlapping.


As a result, it appears 7 arrows is the most ideal since 28 radius is about the highest radius this build can get to without turning the other direction and beginning to reduce your base DoT figure or making very inefficient passive node tree pathing decisions.

Because even with 2 Broadside nodes and Nature's Reprisal, you're going to need +AoE on some gear and also likely need to path to Lethal Assault just to reach 28 radius. Trying to get to 29 radius would cost another 7-8 passives OR you'd need to add Increased AoE support gem to your TR setup, which is a net loss in DPS for whatever +More multiplier gem it's replacing. Which means it's just not worth it.

That being said, if you fire 7 arrows but have less than 28 radius, the additional arrows do equate to added DPS because you have increased your likelihood of overlap up to the limit your radius allows.

For example, 24 radius + 7 arrows is about 12% more damage than 24 radius + 5 arrows.

24 radius + 7 arrows is about 30% less damage than 28 radius + 7 arrows.

28 radius + 7 arrows is about 40% more damage than 28 radius + 5 arrows, and about 17% more damage than 28 radius + 6 arrows.

28 radius + 8 arrows is only about 4% more damage than 28 radius + 7 arrows.


So on that same rationale, if you have 28 radius and you fire less than 7 arrows, you're also being very inefficient since you can in fact 100% of the time overlap 7 with 28 radius (*cough* Remi *cough*). And if you fire more than 7 arrows with 28 radius, you're not really adding much, so I wouldn't sacrifice elsewhere if you can't reach the radius threshold.


The point is, match up the thresholds and you're doing it right. And if you're low on radius, it's still beneficial to have additional arrows... up to a point.


Also, from everything I've tested through this calculator, a rare bow with lvl 20 vicious proj, +1 level socketed gems, attack speed, DoTM, and Chaos DoTM, and then adding Efficacy where the Vicious Proj gem was, beats Quill Rain by a significant amount.

The APS goes down around 38% (~8.x to ~5.x at max APS hypotheticals), but the base DoT amount goes up nearly triple. Which nets nearly double to overall DPS.

It's approximately 35%-40% less pods, but each pod that does drop is doing almost 3x the damage.

If you use a rare bow without the Vicious Proj prefix and maybe try with +2 to socketed gems, it's also slightly better than the Quill Rain, but not as good as the one with Vicious Proj.


And btw, I factored in Mirage Archer with all this and completely left out TR ballista totems.

Rare Vicious Proj bow with TR + mirage archer + empower4 + aVoid Manip + aSwift Affliction + Efficacy

vs

Quill Rain with TR + mirage archer + empower4 + aVoid Manip + aSwift Affliction + aVicious Proj.

And as long as you have some attack speed on the rare bow, it is without question more DPS.



Anyway, I sorta did this for myself because I was having a hard time understanding why +AoE was so important, and now I know it's because TR pod placement has a different radius than the radius of TR's damage applications. And now it all makes sense, finally. And this will allow me, personally, to do the min-maxing of this char properly (which is what I love about PoE, the incredible nuances involved in trying to min-max and fine tune builds).

If my quest for knowledge helped anyone, then cool. Otherwise sorry for my semi-hijacking of the thread.

"

SkylerOG wrote:

Anyway, I sorta did this for myself because I was having a hard time understanding why +AoE was so important, and now I know it's because TR pod placement has a different radius than the radius of TR's damage applications. And now it all makes sense, finally. And this will allow me, personally, to do the min-maxing of this char properly (which is what I love about PoE, the incredible nuances involved in trying to min-max and fine tune builds).

If my quest for knowledge helped anyone, then cool. Otherwise sorry for my semi-hijacking of the thread.

"

Modifiers to area of effect modifiers will increase the area of effect of the vines reach and the pods explosion area. Though it does not increase the spread of the pods. AoE modifiers will increase the overlap damage, as pods will be able to overlap on the same target easily with large area, increasing single target damage.

The more additional projectile modifiers you get, the more pods Toxic Rain will fire out, but this also means the more spreaded out the pods are. This means that more projectile does not equal to more damage, but less damage if you can't have the pods overlap on the target.

I thought this section basically answered your question?

Vicious Proj bow is no longer obtainable, and since general players are more focused on leagues (I have never got to know anyone who plays on std) so I didnt bother with it. Vicious proj bow will always be BiS because of the damage for a single stat, hence why it is being removed.

Oh btw that reddit thread is false, at least for the AoE + arrow overlap. You literally just saw the video and I had 28 Radius with and I only got 5 overlap, you gonna trust a thread over a year old without any evidences or a video evidence on last league?

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Remicaster1 wrote:

Oh btw that reddit thread is false, at least for the AoE + arrow overlap. You literally just saw the video and I had 28 Radius with and I only got 5 overlap, you gonna trust a thread over a year old without any evidences or a video evidence on last league?

Well, your video had a moving target on top of your test only showing us "arrow hits" and/or "explosion hits" as opposed to actual DoT (vine) application.

And because the vines/DoT effect don't have a hit chance, the reflected poisons we saw on your char aren't actually telling us if vines attached/DoT's applied.

So between arrow hits vs explosion hits vs vine DoT application AND a moving target, I'm not sure we can really be certain your test video is actually accurate.



And, you even admitted, yourself, that you are now getting 6 vines applied with 28 radius... but your test video suggests only 5 are possible?

So didn't you disprove your own test video?

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Remicaster1 wrote:

Vicious Proj bow is no longer obtainable, and since general players are more focused on leagues (I have never got to know anyone who plays on std) so I didnt bother with it. Vicious proj bow will always be BiS because of the damage for a single stat, hence why it is being removed.

As I mentioned, even the rare bow without Vicious Proj appears to be more DPS than Quill Rain.

Rare bow with +1 socketed gems, +2 socketed bow gems, +% DoTM, +% atk spd, +% chaos DoTM, and +% atk spd if rare/unique mob nearby, along with gem setup of TR + mirage archer + empower4 + aVoid Manip + aSwift Affliction + Efficacy...

... is significantly more DPS than the same gem setup in a Quill Rain.

Even if your test is correct and 5 or 6 pods at 28 radius is the limit, that rare bow is drastically more DPS than the Quill Rain.

You don't even need the calculator to see that. Just look at the difference in base DoT numbers in relation to difference in APS.

The rare bow base DoT damage is over 3x that of the Quill Rain, while the APS difference is less than 2x.

9.x APS of 6 arrows at 35k DoT base <<<< 5.x APS of 6 arrows at 120k DoT base.

"

SkylerOG wrote:

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

Vicious Proj bow is no longer obtainable, and since general players are more focused on leagues (I have never got to know anyone who plays on std) so I didnt bother with it. Vicious proj bow will always be BiS because of the damage for a single stat, hence why it is being removed.

As I mentioned, even the rare bow without Vicious Proj appears to be more DPS than Quill Rain.

Rare bow with +1 socketed gems, +2 socketed bow gems, +% DoTM, +% atk spd, +% chaos DoTM, and +% atk spd if rare/unique mob nearby, along with gem setup of TR + mirage archer + empower4 + aVoid Manip + aSwift Affliction + Efficacy...

... is significantly more DPS than the same gem setup in a Quill Rain.

Even if your test is correct and 6 pods at 28 radius is the limit, that rare bow is drastically more DPS than the Quill Rain.

You don't even need the calculator to see that. Just look at the difference in base DoT numbers.

The rare bow base DoT damage is over 3x that of the Quill Rain, while the APS difference is less than 2x.

9.x APS of 6 arrows at 35k DoT base <<<< 5.x APS of 6 arrows at 120k DoT base.

https://streamable.com/ov180d top left and top right is what you want to focus on, top left expenses is only 1c, top right is 30ex

is that what you call "significant more dps"?

all 3 maps are modless Phoenix for testing purposes

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SkylerOG wrote:

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Remicaster1 wrote:

Oh btw that reddit thread is false, at least for the AoE + arrow overlap. You literally just saw the video and I had 28 Radius with and I only got 5 overlap, you gonna trust a thread over a year old without any evidences or a video evidence on last league?

Well, your video had a moving target on top of your test only showing us "arrow hits" and/or "explosion hits" as opposed to actual DoT (vine) application.

And because the vines/DoT effect don't have a hit chance, the reflected poisons we saw on your char aren't actually telling us if vines attached/DoT's applied.

So between arrow hits vs explosion hits vs vine DoT application AND a moving target, I'm not sure we can really be certain your test video is actually accurate.



And, you even admitted, yourself, that you are now getting 6 vines applied with 28 radius... but your test video suggests only 5 are possible?

So didn't you disprove your own test video?

Dude, did you even read what my notes section in PoB and read what i was trying to say? You're starting to irritate me at this point cus I felt like you aren't reading the guide at all then bombard me with all these questions. Yes I know it's my responsibility to help you and understand the guide, but this doesn't mean you can just ignore all the stuff I spent countless hours of writing then just straight up asking a lot of questions.



about the hit chance shenanigans

If you don't trust what I've tested, then why don't you do it on your own?

For the 6 pods, refer to PoB notes then ask again.

I don't have a lot of time to play begin with (haven't been playing for a few days now), I'm just here helping players answer questions. But please if the answer is already been written please read it first, then state where you don't understand. It really waste a lot of my time just trying to explain something that already have been explained. You've kinda hogged the whole thread because you don't understand a certain mechanic that I've explained. You could've just asked that in a much simpler form. If I was unclear on the explanation I could make it clear for you and rewrite that sentence on the guide based on your suggestion on improving it.

I don't really care how much questions you ask, I'm more than happy to help you. But if you are gonna ignore all my work... it just makes me feel sad.