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Remicaster1 wrote:

Tl;dr the overlap per radius is debunked, seems you've finally caught on it.

It actually is that simple, if it overlaps? It overlaps, then It counts. We don't really have to look into exact decimals or multiple formulas to make our lives difficult just to get something that can be easily explained.

What you're doing it's like finding all the numbers in Pi, you can do that if you are totally curious, but no one is gonna care that much since the first 4 figures of Pi pretty much solves everything.

In short it does expand the diameter, but in a longer explanation it kinda does, kinda doesn't. What caused that is the pod to pod distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KviL9PwKX4M - This may be your answer

It's clear that every added arrow increases the pod placement radius, and from the looks of that video, the increase factor appears to be +5 radius per arrow.

The explosion radius and overlapping rings we could see when every pod exploded helped confirm this.

Here is the analysis of that video which I watched quite a few times in slow motion...

At +60% AoE (TR + NR) = 22 Radius:
5 arrows = 4 overlap, 1 out of range
6 arrows = 4 overlap, 2 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 4 & 3
7 arrows = 4 overlap, 3 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 4 & 4
8 arrows = 4 overlap, 4 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 4 & 4 & 2
12 arrows = 4 overlap, 8 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 4 & 4 & 3 & 2

At +107% AoE (TR + NR + Carcass) = 25 Radius:
5 arrows = 5 overlap
6 arrows = 5 overlap, 1 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 4
7 arrows = 5 overlap, 2 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 5
8 arrows = 5 overlap, 3 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 5 & 3
12 arrows = 5 overlap, 7 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 5 & 4 & 2

At +157% AoE (TR + NR + Carcass + 2x Broadside) = 28 Radius
5 arrows = 5 overlap
6 arrows = 5 overlap, 1 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 5
7 arrows = 5 overlap, 2 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 5 & 2
8 arrows = 5 overlap, 3 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 5 & 3
12 arrows = 5 overlap, 7 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 5 & 5 & 4 & 3

At +207% AoE (TR + NR + Carcass + 4x Broadside) = 31 Radius
5 arrows = 5 overlap
6 arrows = 6 overlap
7 arrows = 6 overlap, 1 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 6 & 5
8 arrows = 6 overlap, 2 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 6 & 6 & 2 & 2
12 arrows = 6 overlap, 6 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 6 & 6 & 5 & 2 & 2

At +247% AoE (TR + NR + Carcass + 5x Broadside + Lethal Assault) = 33 Radius
5 arrows = 5 overlap
6 arrows = 6 overlap
7 arrows = 6 overlap, 1 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 6 & 6
8 arrows = 6 overlap, 2 out of range, adjacent overlaps of 6 & 6 & 3 & 2
12 arrows = 6 overlap, 6 out of range, adjacent overlap of 6 & 6 & 6 & 3 & 2


Radius Assessment:
5 Arrows = 25 Pod Placement Radius.
6 Arrows = 30 Pod Placement Radius.
7 Arrows = 35 Pod Placement Radius.
8 Arrows = 40 Pod Placement Radius.
12 Arrows = 60 Pod Placement Radius.


Calculating Overlap Rate:
At 60% AoE/22 Radius with 5 Arrows: 22r/25r = 88% overlap rate. 5 pods * .88 = 4.4 possible overlapping pods.

At 107% AoE/25 Radius with 5 Arrows: 25r/25r = 100% overlap rate. 5 pods * 1.0 = 5.0 possible overlapping pods.

At 107% AoE/25 Radius with 6 Arrows: 25r/30r = 83.4% overlap rate. 6 pods * .83.4 = 5.0 possible overlapping pods.

At 157% AoE/28 Radius with 6 Arrows: 28r/30r = 93.3 overlap rate. 6 pods * .93.3 = 5.6 possible overlapping pods.

At 157% AoE/28 Radius with 7 Arrows: 28r/35r = 80% overlap rate. 7 pods * .80 = 5.6 possible overlapping pods.

At 207% AoE/31 Radius with 6 Arrows: 31r/30r = 103.3% overlap rate. 6 pods * 1.033 = 6 possible overlapping pods. (duh)

At 207% AoE/31 Radius with 7 Arrows: 31r/35r = 88.6% overlap rate. 7 pods * .886 = 6.2 possible overlapping pods.

At 247% AoE/33 Radius with 7 Arrows: 33r/35r = 94.3% overlap rate. 7 pods * .943 = 6.6 possible overlapping pods.

At 280% AoE/35 Radius with 7 Arrows: 35r/35r = 100% overlap rate. 7 pods * 1.0 = 7.0 possible overlapping pods.


So those appear to be the thresholds and the pod placement factor is 5 for every additional arrow.

And like I said, the goal is to match the pod placement radius with your AoE radius, and this will determine how many DoT's you can actually overlap.


Adding more arrows above your threshold doesn't help your single-target damage unless your target is mobile, because as we can see in this video, pods outside the AoE range can still overlap with adjacent pods that are in their range.

So you may have 2 pods outside the range to hit a mob at the start, but if he moves towards them, those 2 pods could then apply their DoT's to the mob with whatever duration they have remaining.

So basically, against a moving mob, you CAN still get all your pod's DoT's applied and overlapping at the same time even if you don't have high AoE.


In addition, added arrows absolutely do help while mapping against packs of trash mobs. If you have a 5 pod overlap limit, then you're still never going to overlap more than 5 DoT's unless mobs move into range of every pod. But since mob packs are spread out, more arrows = more mobs have potential to get max DoT's stacked on them either way.

In other words, having more arrows than you can effectively overlap is still not a bad thing. Those extra arrows are not a waste. They may not always help you against stationary mobs/bosses since they can't overlap if they are out of range, BUT, they surely help clearing large mob packs that are spread out as well as mobile mobs who move around a lot while you're fighting them.


Anyway, thanks for finding that video. It basically cleared the whole thing up and I think we can definitively say we now have the pod placement radius per arrow amount and can now calculate the "overlap rate" precisely.

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Remicaster1 wrote:

For the PoB dps per arrow, no it does not calculate per arrow, it only calculate per overlap and that is manual input. You cannot go 6 overlap when you only have 5 arrows (it just ignores the 6th overlap) and that's it. I've tested this on my PoB.

I do think there will be diminishing numbers when scaling AoE and pod arrows, but we don't go too far off the hook because it's diminishing dps boosting as we forget attack speed / gem levels / dot multi / skill duration etc.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but this is what I was talking about:





That is a screenshot of your PoB calc page.

Look at the colored boxes.

Red = Per Pod DoT Damage (and it is mathematically correct, something PoB does right)
Green = APS
Yellow = DoT Duration
White = Number of Arrows/Pods/DoT's
Blue = DoT Radius

And now we know how to calculate the overlap rate.

So now I'm going to show you PRECISELY what your Final DoT DPS is...


7 Arrows/Pods * 8.70 APS = 60.9 Arrows/Pods Fired/Placed Per Second

60.9 * 2.84s Duration = 172.96 Total Pods Fired/Placed Over Duration

28 DoT Radius / 35 Pod Placement Radius = .80 = 80% Overlap Rate

172.96 Total Pods * .80 Overlap Rate = 138.4 Active Overlapping Pods

105180 DoT Per Pod Damage * 138.4 Active Overlapping Pods = 14,556,912 DoT DPS


Mirage Archer APS = 8.70 * .40 = 3.48

7 Arrows/Pods * 3.48 APS = 24.36 Pods Fired/Placed Per Second by MA

24.36 Pods * 2.84s Duration = 69.2 Total Pods Fire/Placed Over Duration

69.2 Total Pods * .80 Overlap Rate = 55.4 Active Overlapping Pods

Mirage Archer DoT Per Pod Damage = 105180 * .69 (-31% less) = 72,574.2

72,574 DoT Per Pod Damage * 55.4 Active Overlapping Pods = 4,020,600 DoT DPS from Mirage Archer (~27.6% more damage)


14,556,912 + 4,020,600 = 18,577,512 Final DoT DPS


Now understand it takes 2.84 seconds for you to ramp up to that DPS, too.

So at the end of second #1, you've done 6,541,375.

At the end of second #2, you've done 13,082,755.

And then once you hit the 2.84s mark, you're persistently doing 18,577,512 with DoT DPS.



At 30 AoE, this would be your difference:
30r/35r = 85.7 overlap rate
172.96 pods * .857 = 148.23 active overlapping pods
69.2 pods from MA * .857 = 59.30 active overlapping pods from MA

105180 DoT per pod damage * 148.23 active overlapping pods = 15,590,831
72,574 DoT per pod damage from MA * 59.30 active overlapping pods = 4,303,638

15,590,831 + 4,303,638 = 19,894,469


19,894,469 - 18,577,512 = 1,316,957 / 18,577,512 = 7.09% more DPS.


So if you just go up 2 more AoE, you can add just over 7% MORE DPS to your char.


That's why I wanted to know all these numbers. So I can do stuff like that for my char. So I can min-max and figure out exactly what I need and where to get the most bang for the buck.

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SkylerOG wrote:

That's why I wanted to know all these numbers. So I can do stuff like that for my char. So I can min-max and figure out exactly what I need and where to get the most bang for the buck.

Interesting discussion. So btw if you got the formula now, is there finally a proof which support gem is the best 6th option between efficacy, mirage archer and awakened area of effect? Because especially the last one I've never seen any proof how does it line up against the other 2.

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Viktranka wrote:

"

SkylerOG wrote:

That's why I wanted to know all these numbers. So I can do stuff like that for my char. So I can min-max and figure out exactly what I need and where to get the most bang for the buck.

Interesting discussion. So btw if you got the formula now, is there finally a proof which support gem is the best 6th option between efficacy, mirage archer and awakened area of effect? Because especially the last one I've never seen any proof how does it line up against the other 2.

Yes, that formula allows you to see precisely what Awakened AoE does for you vs the others.

Efficacy will raise you Per Pod DoT Damage.

Mirage Archer you can plug in the numbers like I did above and see exactly what it adds.

And aAoE will improve your Overlap Rate (DoT Radius / Pod Placement Radius).


As you can see, I illustrated what just adding 2 AoE Radius to Remi's build did, going from 28 to 30. It added just over 7% more DPS because his Overlap Rate went from 80% to 85.7%, which made his Active Overlapping Pods increase, and thus equates to more DPS.

That doesn't mean it's only +7% more DPS for everyone. You may have a different number of arrows/pods, APS, and AoE Radius. aAoE might be 25% more DPS for you. You won't know until you plug it in to the formula and see. Same with Efficacy.

Mirage Archer is always going to be upwards of 27-28% more DPS, however. That one will be near constant, because it is at 100% correlation with your TR DoT DPS, just with a reduced APS and less damage multiplier. So it's on a relative scale, just at a fraction.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rd7KaVozxL3V3qczjNgtbGZNUJ1VjlOwLn1zkNlDVR8/edit?usp=sharing

try accessing it, it's a google docs for the calculator you mentioned.

To edit it, you need to make a copy of it. To enter your own data, only fill up the highlighted purple cells, don't touch others

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Remicaster1 wrote:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rd7KaVozxL3V3qczjNgtbGZNUJ1VjlOwLn1zkNlDVR8/edit?usp=sharing

try accessing it, it's a google docs for the calculator you mentioned.

To edit it, you need to make a copy of it. To enter your own data, only fill up the highlighted purple cells, don't touch others

That's awesome.

I woke up today and was literally about to put one of these together, but you've already done it.

Great job, and thank you.



ETA: For anyone who wants the final "breakpoint projections" including mirage archer, just multiply B20 * B39 and then add that number to B38... and then B20 * B41 and add that number to B40.

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SkylerOG wrote:

I woke up today and was literally about to put one of these together, but you've already done it.

Great job, and thank you.



ETA: For anyone who wants the final "breakpoint projections" including mirage archer, just multiply B20 * B39 and then add that number to B38... and then B20 * B41 and add that number to B40.

or just multiply the "Total more given" to your current DPS /w MA and that works too, imo way faster and easier\

Felt like posting this calculator on reddit to get some improvement, though idk how useful reddit will be

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15lQsQNDHt809soqWf47_yhieR9tH2tRUH7JG3pRW_EE/edit#gid=0

I improved the calculator by a lot, think you guys might find it interesting. If you have any issues regarding with the calculator let me know

I made some edits to the calculator.

Cleaned a few things up and added a function that allows you to turn on/off Mirage Archer, as well as added a whole section for Ballista Totems.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_oN2fR_u6baE-tWdWC42xStMH0tsZ-m5q-WW101UTYg/edit#gid=0

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SkylerOG wrote:

I made some edits to the calculator.

Cleaned a few things up and added a function that allows you to turn on/off Mirage Archer, as well as added a whole section for Ballista Totems.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_oN2fR_u6baE-tWdWC42xStMH0tsZ-m5q-WW101UTYg/edit#gid=0

you need to make it so that everyone has the link can view it, currently my access was denied, prob you didn't set that particular part