-

I don't disagree this setup will work, and it could probably work either with quill rain or with a bow that has attack speed & attack speed when a rare is nearby (double as mods), first one attacks faster the second won't have the 30% penalty but will plant fewer pods.

I think in the end the corrupted chest will end up being more expensive, and less beginner friendly because not many people know how to socket, link and recolor corrupted items (you need recipes from delve cities, experienced players know it but newbies won't and will be charged extra penny for "correct colours" on the chest).

Since carcass is int / dex base I imagine spamming "1 red" recipe and praying for good results will cost you the smallest amount of vaals?

But yeah, I saw it in the nearby flicker strike raider build when the author recommended corrupted weapon people were like... wait I need 1500 vaals to link this? So yes, I think it's a bit more prohibitive.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

Also speaking, the -9 helmet is just overrated, it is not as good as it seems as you don't always stand close to bosses like Phoenix charge up, you don't stand right next to him. People though "oh it's the -9 helmet it must be superior" but it is just, nothing much as proven in the comparison

According to wiki the range of that helmet aura is 60 units so it's not as bad as having to stand next to the boss, but if you off-screen stuff or hit and run and mobs stay behind you, then yes, the aura will fall off. Unless they nerfed the radius when they shifted it to influence mods (which I have no info about).

It's just much, much harder to roll it nowadays so rolling it with decent stats on the helmet is a pain, similar problem as chest crafting when you want special influence mods and then decent amount of life it skyrockets the price.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

I doubt most people know you can even roll Enduring on Hybrid flask.

Dunno how it stacks with both life and mana flask that you have, but there's another idea (borrowed from nearby scourge arrow build) where you roll "foreboding" on the hybrid flask, it still gives fortify for the full duration, doesn't get shortened by enduring nerf, but downside is you get no mana from it. So if it cancels mana flask then it would ruin the setup. The guy who implemented it was running -15 mana cost chest so he had "free" attack and didn't have to care about this downside. Not sure if here it would work.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

when a new player goes looking on a "bow build" what would be the first type of gear they look on? Usually it's the bow right? Same goes to the melee builds, the first thing they will usually look is the weapons right? So the Bow is kinda the "face" of the build, when you let them see like, let's say a 100ex bow, they will be like "oh damn what should I do to get that", encouraging them to do the impossible. So here I am offering a 1 alch or 1c bow that can do the endgame content just completely fine.

Well toxic rain and caustic arrow are "weird" bow skills because they don't work like weapon skills... That's why they're great for levelling because I went with a lvl 7 bow from act 1 to blood aqueduct and didn't even notice. If I tried to play let's say ice shot, I would do no damage if I didn't upgrade the bow.

That's probably also the reason why I constantly see people crafting "adds x to y chaos damage to attacks" on their rings and quivers and buying abyss jewels with it. That's probably what they've learnt about "bow builds" when they played ice shot and similar, where stacking added damage is much more effective than here. So glad you mentioned it in the guide to not craft / buy this.

Oh, and people constantly go for gripped gloves too even though the implicit does not work for toxic rain.

The question is how do you progress this build from tabula + quill rain into the end game setup? Because I imagine going all the way with a tabula probably is gonna start showing low damage once you get to higher maps.

With a bow progression we have some band aids, like porcupine and imperial legacy cards for easy 6-link and then can alt-spam or use an essence to get +2 to bow gems very cheaply, a +3 bow costs around 3-4 ex to self craft and +3 bow with multimod and 1 good suffix 1 trash costs around 7-8 ex. Only after I'd consider going into 30-40ex bows because it's paying 4-5 times the price for basically 1 suffix. Yeah, you'll do that when you min max. But it's a steep diminishing return in dps gain per exalt spent. Same as the helmet enchant / -res aura.

Also I've noticed that a lot of newcomers don't know that if you buy a 5ex+ bow and slot a lvl 17 toxic rain in it, it's nearly the same as if you bought lvl 20 tr (bricked corrupt so cheap) and a white bow. You won't believe how many people say "my dps is kinda low" and have sub lvl 20 tr and sub lvl 3 empower. (And if you don't have +1 to socketed gems on bow or corruption then empower might not even be useful over another support gem until lvl 4.)

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

Trickster is not the best ascendancy, there are others as I've mentioned, like Pathfinder, Necromancer and Ascendant (yes, max block attack speed ascendant variant). And NONE of them are the best, the best one is the one you found the most comfortable and enjoyable playing with. But other than PF and Trick, most people doesn't even attempt to experiment with them (I don't because I don't have the GPU for it)

Why necro? Is it again about abusing self-offerings? And what fries the GPU, desecrate?

Personally I think Occultist would work as well, I think I've seen a video where a guy made TR Occultist with profane bloom and every possible explode mod (chest, unspeakable gifts cluster node, not sure if asenath gloves too), looked fun, not sure how effective against bosses where you can't explode everything.

For defensive purpose champion could be a pick too, don't need flasks for perma fortify and you can get some damage increase that should work for any skill.

And people don't experiment because people ask "what's best" or just copy each other. Doesn't help that the first advice a new player hears is "follow a guide". Well better that, than running your build into a dead end when you're new and no idea what to do.

But I feel like "what's best" pushes some ascendancies to be really low play rate, for example you can make some builds as inquisitor but most people will go for assassin, you can make ignite elementalist but many people will just default to trickster etc.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

About the frenzy charge stuff, the only other method I found is via Elegant Hubris, 10% chance to gain frenzy on hit, which is quite strong but it doesn't offer any good defensive options. As a guy who likes balancing out stuff, I don't really like those kind of stuff that requires you to drop a lot of survivability.

Yeah that's a good point. Another downside is these jewels have no way of previewing what are you buying and getting 1 specific mod in specific area of the tree you path around might be hard, and if it transforms some nodes that are big life / damage gain you'd lose these too.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

The moment I decided to write this guide, i know i am stepping into something extremely controversial and I am prepared to deal with it xd

I don't think the setup is "bad", I just think the original youtuber who posted it should have not tried to sell it as "cheap", because in the end it's an equally expensive setup. It's also much less accessible to self craft, if anyone cares about that aspect (SSF & console players mostly). I don't know how economy is gonna be next league, but atm it seems it's more reliable profit to sell your double corruption chamber than actually corrupt stuff (half the time it goes poof or bricks anyway).

"

WolfieNa wrote:

I wonder if a quiver with +25% chaos dot multiplier and chance to gain frenzy charge on hitting a rare/unique monster would be better than OP's quiver? Or your attack speed is already too high that getting more AS multiplier would not significantly be better than raw +17% dot multiplier? I guess my question is about +17% dot multiplier in OP's current quiver vs. a quiver with (+12% more multiplier and +12% AS more multiplier).

[theorycraft]Replace stun avoidance suffix with +AS to have luxury end-game quiver.

Oh, you're the guy who made the foreboding flask build! :) Do you know if it cancels mana flasks if you have both?

Also frenzy charges is 12% more damage not even counting the attack speed, so it's probably worth it for min maxers, unless there are other "chase" mods like extra arrow (not sure about that one).

Didn't remember that mod exists on quiver, I knew there was one with frenzy on crit, and then there was frenzy on kill on glove.

Also since it's a fast hitting build the 5% might not be as bad as it looks. Even though since accuracy is useless for TR pods it's probably slightly less due to accuracy fail. But if you have 10+ aps then it's probably fine?

I imagine the specific quiver you linked is from your poison scourge arrow build? How do you actually ensure you get good life roll on it? Because if you awakener orb merge then it could have whatever, or did you try a lot of times to get it right?

"

Why necro? Is it again about abusing self-offerings? And what fries the GPU, desecrate?

Asenath's Chant, procing offerings at the same time while scaling up your attack speed with it. Almost the same as VD but TR version. I heard good stuff about it but i never planned to try it.

"

I don't disagree this setup will work, and it could probably work either with quill rain or with a bow that has attack speed & attack speed when a rare is nearby (double as mods), first one attacks faster the second won't have the 30% penalty but will plant fewer pods.

I think in the end the corrupted chest will end up being more expensive, and less beginner friendly because not many people know how to socket, link and recolor corrupted items (you need recipes from delve cities, experienced players know it but newbies won't and will be charged extra penny for "correct colours" on the chest).

Since carcass is int / dex base I imagine spamming "1 red" recipe and praying for good results will cost you the smallest amount of vaals?

Yeah, i should've put more explanation on this so newer players will know what to do and when to get the Carcass Jack with corruption. Though I still think it is a lot more simpler to learn how to corrupt a Carcass well than learning how to craft those +3 bow (most of my friends doesn't even want to try crafting that bow ever again, and doesn't recommend anyone else to craft it), as Carcass has a div card which makes obtaining it easier. Though 6l it will be a problem for SSF situations.

"

And people don't experiment because people ask "what's best" or just copy each other. Doesn't help that the first advice a new player hears is "follow a guide". Well better that, than running your build into a dead end when you're new and no idea what to do.

The problem with experimenting and researching takes a lot of time and currency. Just by testing Trickster vs PF takes me 200ex, I had to sell my Mirror to get those items JUST to let people know that PF is a viable class for TR. Cus people have been on Trickster for ages because it is the best class for TR at that time, forgetting situation changes when new stuff comes up. Point is experimenting stuff just takes way too much time, currency and dedication where most players would just give up on doing that.

Don't forget that whenever some doods have question, i have to burn currency just to test them. (Like when you are curious about the +3 bow vs quill rain with no +1 Carcass)

As for the bow, a beginner player would need to learn a lot on how to craft it properly without bricking the bow, while Quill Rain is more like a "buy this and this item carry you, don't need to kill your brain cells for it" (hope you get my point here =p)

About the mana flask stuff, I will test it later on, thanks for the suggestion! :>

"

With a bow progression we have some band aids, like porcupine and imperial legacy cards for easy 6-link and then can alt-spam or use an essence to get +2 to bow gems very cheaply, a +3 bow costs around 3-4 ex to self craft and +3 bow with multimod and 1 good suffix 1 trash costs around 7-8 ex. Only after I'd consider going into 30-40ex bows because it's paying 4-5 times the price for basically 1 suffix. Yeah, you'll do that when you min max. But it's a steep diminishing return in dps gain per exalt spent. Same as the helmet enchant / -res aura.

You could get the Porcupine cards and chance it into a Quill rain, as Quill Rain is a low tier unique item, making it chancing the item relatively easy as chance orbs early on is quite cheap. Pretty easy to get a 6l Quill Rain early though the cards won't be cheap.

"

Also I've noticed that a lot of newcomers don't know that if you buy a 5ex+ bow and slot a lvl 17 toxic rain in it, it's nearly the same as if you bought lvl 20 tr (bricked corrupt so cheap) and a white bow. You won't believe how many people say "my dps is kinda low" and have sub lvl 20 tr and sub lvl 3 empower. (And if you don't have +1 to socketed gems on bow or corruption then empower might not even be useful over another support gem until lvl 4.)

That's true, might need to throw some explanations on my guide again too xD

"

WolfieNa wrote:

It's nice to see another Pathfinder build. Congratz OP.

"

Viktranka wrote:

P.S. Do you bother with any sources of frenzy charges? Only thing that I never managed to find elegant solution for on toxic rain builds are reliable sources of frenzy charges because "maloneys with frenzy socketed in it" just doesn't work for me, when I play a "no aim required" build like TR I don't wanna have to worry where that frenzy arrow shoots and have it miss half the time on bosses. Plus maloney's is expensive and has underwhelming stats outside of the sockets it provides.

I wonder if a quiver with +25% chaos dot multiplier and chance to gain frenzy charge on hitting a rare/unique monster would be better than OP's quiver? Or your attack speed is already too high that getting more AS multiplier would not significantly be better than raw +17% dot multiplier? I guess my question is about +17% dot multiplier in OP's current quiver vs. a quiver with (+12% more multiplier and +12% AS more multiplier).

[theorycraft]Replace stun avoidance suffix with +AS to have luxury end-game quiver.

I'd also forgot those kind of stuff existed XD. Good suggestion right there but I've ran out of currency atm, means that I can't experiment with it, though I don't think these types of quiver will exist at this point where most people have quit the league (Though I haven't checked trade)

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

The problem with experimenting and researching takes a lot of time and currency. Just by testing Trickster vs PF takes me 200ex, I had to sell my Mirror to get those items JUST to let people know that PF is a viable class for TR.

Tbh PF would work even with exactly the same gear as trickster, or the other way around. So it's more about testing the chest vs bow than class vs class.

The only difference I see in building PF vs trickster is that trickster has specific synergy with evasion + energy shield so it will reward building hybrid rather than pure life, it has also a bit harder to get the same amount of life because ranger starting nodes give life and shadow don't.

However building hybrid has the downside you're heavily encouraged to run discipline as an aura so you're losing the option to run a different aura, like skitterbots. Obviously that wasn't any issue before skitterbots or even flesh & stone were implemented because there wasn't that much interesting stuff to use anyway, you could use malevolence and aspect at best. I've seen people run haste or grace (not vaal, the reserve one), but imo that's not worth the mana cost (or rather, speccing charisma is 4 points that can be put to better use).

But in building for dps I see no difference, the fact PF gets increased area and trickster gets increased duration doesn't really affect what damage stats you'd be stacking.

"

Viktranka wrote:

"

WolfieNa wrote:

I wonder if a quiver with +25% chaos dot multiplier and chance to gain frenzy charge on hitting a rare/unique monster would be better than OP's quiver? Or your attack speed is already too high that getting more AS multiplier would not significantly be better than raw +17% dot multiplier? I guess my question is about +17% dot multiplier in OP's current quiver vs. a quiver with (+12% more multiplier and +12% AS more multiplier).

[theorycraft]Replace stun avoidance suffix with +AS to have luxury end-game quiver.

Oh, you're the guy who made the foreboding flask build! :)

Yeah, it's me. :)

"

Do you know if it cancels mana flasks if you have both?

Recovery effects are queued if multiple flasks are used at the same time. The highest recovery will take place first.

Let's say you have a 5-sec foreboding and a 1300 mana hybrid. You take a sip from the foreboding one and using your skill that drains out mana. 1 sec later, you drink the mana flask. The mana flask's effects are activated while the fortify effect from Foreboding remains online until its expiration. Foreboding's mana recovers at the end, so it's not interfering with the mana flask.
(If you have an enduring flask, enduring flask's effects don't queue. As a result, its effect will not be canceled when you drink your mana flask.)

Ref: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/11707/page/1#p216023

"

Also frenzy charges is 12% more damage not even counting the attack speed, so it's probably worth it for min maxers, unless there are other "chase" mods like extra arrow (not sure about that one).

Didn't remember that mod exists on quiver, I knew there was one with frenzy on crit, and then there was frenzy on kill on glove.

Also since it's a fast hitting build the 5% might not be as bad as it looks. Even though since accuracy is useless for TR pods it's probably slightly less due to accuracy fail. But if you have 10+ aps then it's probably fine?

From what I saw, OP's AS is really high. It seems to me that he would be able to reach 3 frenzy charges in no time.

"

I imagine the specific quiver you linked is from your poison scourge arrow build? How do you actually ensure you get a good life roll on it? Because if you awakener orb merge then it could have, whatever or did you try a lot of times to get it right?

Yeah, I crafted that kind of quiver for my scourge arrow build. But it seems it has the potential for high-AS DoT bow build as well.

The crafting process is affix isolation by awaken orb (or just me calling it that way) since +25% chaos dot multiplier and chance to gain frenzy charge from hitting raw/unque are both suffixes. After awakening fusion, the suffixes are likely populated. (I've used this method quite extensively in my awaken orb crafting).

If the 3rd suffix roll is good and we hit the T1/2 life roll, we call it a day. Otherwise, depending on the 3rd suffix roll and the availability of an empty prefix or prefixes' rolls, we can proceed differently. If you have excess money, you can meta-craft after the awakening fusion. The highest potential this crafting can get is a Toxic Rain quiver with:

• T1/2 life roll
• +18% DoT multiplier
• 15% increased AoE or a benchcrafting prefix such as 'Adds 7 - 17 chaos damage to attack'
• +25% Chaos DoT multiplier
• 5% chance to gain a Frenzy Charge when you Hit a Rare or Unique Enemy
• A random suffix roll whose best candidate is (7-13)% increased attack speed

I crafted and sold a bunch of these quivers (not the best rolls) for a moderately cheap price, just to recoup my investment.

Edit: change the example to foreboding + mana flask.

"

Remicaster1 wrote:

"

WolfieNa wrote:

[theorycraft]Replace stun avoidance suffix with +AS to have luxury end-game quiver.

I'd also forgot those kind of stuff existed XD. Good suggestion right there but I've ran out of currency atm, means that I can't experiment with it, though I don't think these types of quiver will exist at this point where most people have quit the league (Though I haven't checked trade)

I sold all such quivers already although there may be others in the market.

Hi, if there is not any modification to cluster/core mechanism of that build, do you think you can league start with it ? If yes, will you add a section about it ? :)

"

oNionz wrote:

Hi, if there is not any modification to cluster/core mechanism of that build, do you think you can league start with it ? If yes, will you add a section about it ? :)

Yes you absolutely can league start with it, though I need more time on experimenting the budget builds, what to prioritize and what to do with it.

Though for now getting a 6l Quill Rain would be able to carry you on the early game, should be able to reach T16s with it, but might be a little bad on bosses without having your first set of clusters.

About adding the section, yes I will :>

I was looking for some forum guide for this type of scaling using quill rain since i watched this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D478FZgbcI

He gave the rough idea of how the skill works and mechanics but very squishy that u die a lot.No way min max'd version though.