Spider just got popular for damage because softcore.
Yeah I understand the aim of the build here is to be focused on SSF HC environment, even though it's used by many softcore players too.
The more technical question I have is how do we exactly calculate the "real damage increase" value from various mods, so aspect of the spider is "5% increased Damage taken" per stack, stacks to 3, then wither totem is "6% increased Chaos Damage taken" stacks to 15, and if you were using Touch of Cruelty that's another mod "Enemies Hindered by you take 10% increased Chaos Damage", do they all add together? And for the sake of it, let's say you'd have an item with a mod "Shock nearby Enemies when you Focus", baseline shock is 15% is that also additive with the rest of those mods?
And are they multiplicative with -chaos resistance mods like hunter helmet / despair? Or are they additive too?
The point is that I'm trying to figure out what is better damage value, 30% increased chaos damage from Unwaveringly Evil, or 10% increased enemy damage taken from Touch of Cruelty (even if you don't use spider and you hinder them with wither totem), the guide recommends Unwaveringly Evil which I'm using myself too, I imagine the part "Chaos Skills ignore interruption from Stuns" is not very relevant because CA is not a channelling skill, so it's mostly because 30% increased chaos damage is stronger than alternatives.
Just wondering if I'm missing anything in this line of thinking, at 1st I thought Touch of Cruelty would be bad because "10% chance to Hinder on Hit" will basically never happen with a build that doesn't rely on "hitting" stuff and dots don't count as hit, but if wither totem is a reliable source of hinder then that part is already covered and we wouldn't have to rely on some low-proc-chance mod to get Hinder to be up.
TLDR: Is 30% increased damage dealt better than 10% increased damage taken or is there another factor I'm missing in the consideration.
To be honest, for this we need to wait for Dankas reply. I am not very sure about the numbers as I do not have access to PoB right now. I only use touch of cruelty because thats how I crafted my jewel. Touch of Cruelty, Unweavering Evil and Unholy Grace with 2 sockets. Thats how it turned out so I kept it and got Wicked Pall on medium cluster instead. I might change it around tho. I suppose Danka did not really try this out in SSF, but the point is he might have access to it in PoB so I would be interested to see the numbers. But I expect the differences to be very minor.
Any reason to corrupt my 6-link +3 bow? I just about have the currency for the +2 support now (and have another 6 link bow). I could try to double corrupt my old +3 now but I’m not sure if there are any reasonable mods. Im assuming +1 gems implicit is blocked by +1 gems already on the bow.
There's none, just sell it instead. +1 to all gems not available on weapons.
SSF. Oops, you're right there is no +1. I just looked at the mods and I'll try anyway for +1 arrow and frenzy charge on kill.
TLDR: Is 30% increased damage dealt better than 10% increased damage taken or is there another factor I'm missing in the consideration.
To be honest, for this we need to wait for Dankas reply. I am not very sure about the numbers as I do not have access to PoB right now. I only use touch of cruelty because thats how I crafted my jewel. Touch of Cruelty, Unweavering Evil and Unholy Grace with 2 sockets. Thats how it turned out so I kept it and got Wicked Pall on medium cluster instead. I might change it around tho. I suppose Danka did not really try this out in SSF, but the point is he might have access to it in PoB so I would be interested to see the numbers. But I expect the differences to be very minor.
It depends on your own gear.
If I import the currently active character of the OP his increased damage is 400%, meaning that 30% increased is effectively 7.5% more multiplicative damage. Obviously with no other source of "nearby targets take increased damage", 10% increased damage taken by targets you wither is worth 10% more multiplicative damage. Ergo, in this exact circumstance, 30% increased damage is 2.5% real effective damage worse than 10% increased enemy damage taken.
If you have more than 400% increased damage, the increased damage is relatively worse for oyu. If you have less, its worth relatively less.
If you have another source of increased damage taken, the increased damage taken is relatively worse. If not, it's relatively better.
Edit: Your (drobecdrobny's) increased damage is only 250%, meaning that the 30% increased damage is worth 12% more effective damage, meaning that for you, 30% increased damage is more valuable than 10% increased damage taken by enemies (and you don't have to apply hinder to get it).
Last edited by Pathological on Apr 6, 2020, 6:28:11 AM
Sorry about the rip, seems like a very unfortunate combination of things happened there.
About the jewel - I will try lethal pride, I am not very familiar with those. For now I still think this option is pretty good and T16 mapping is walk in the park with 3 frenzies and 3 endurance charges. Strong point of those passives is that it gives you minimum +1 to charges so you always have that little defensive boost on bosses as a plus even if its not at max. Anyways it is a good option until you get your hands on those gloves and boots, but I guess you can try it out next league when you switch to trade, its really not that bad if you dont have enough currency for gloves/boots yet.
For the res and jewel slot argument, my gear currently is very high on res because I am in trade league so I have this sorted out. About the jewel socket, yes, we lose one but still can have 4 more (2 instead of small cluster jewels and 2 on the tree). For how many travel nodes we save and how much we get in return I cannot see this as a con. Especially if you think about that we get 5% dmg per each charge and we maintain 6.
I just ran a deathless Simulacrum and I was especially keeping an eye for my Crab buff to see how it holds up against being constantly in the middle of the beefy packs. I must say it is actually very impressive and I agree its BiS for this build. Sometimes the buff would be up for as long as 20 seconds, that means we really dont get hit THAT often thanks to our evasion, in addition once you lose the stacks they are back at full in 4 seconds so its really VERY useful. I am not even going to try Spider after this run. As you mentioned, once the damage is enough to clear T16 without any problem, it is more useful to focus on small defensive layers to boost survivability and I 100% agree on this. Spider just got popular for damage because softcore.
Anyways, I was just sharing the idea to people who might be interested, no hard feelings. I did not want you to include it to the guide or anything, just sharing ideas. And thanks for that Lethal Pride recommendation, I am going to have a look at it.
This rip wasn't the worst when it comes to RNG and was totally avoidable. I do have one concern which i'll test later. It's probably a false alert so i won't bother describing.
Thread of Hope indeed can be a decent budget option to get charge generation. It is decent, but suboptimal imo. I'll do the breakdown:
Unnecessary breakdown of Thread of Hope
* Assumption is that the build takes jewel socket anyway and has typical 3-mod one.
* You save total 4 points - Art of Gladiator and 3 small passives near Fury Bolt. I value Master of the Arena highly due to regen so i would still pick it.
* The damage you get from charge generation nodes are basically the same as small projectile nodes, so we can say these nodes only give generation. They also cost 2 points, so this means you save total 2 points.
* The jewel itself gives -(10-20)% resistances, so for simplicity sake lets say it gives -10%. This includes permanent buff from minimum 1 end charge. This equals to ~1 passive. The usual 3-mod jewel is SUPER efficient. On average it should give 7% max life (you want that high roll) and 20% increased damage. This equals to ~3 passives. So the final breakdown:
* 2 passive points saved.
* ~4 passives worth of stats lost.
* End and Frenzy charge generation gained.
* 4% permanent phys dmg reduction.
TL;DR You lose little bit of stats for charge generation.
Lethal Pride can give you more or less depending on the seed. The only problem it has is blocking possiblity to use Glorious Vanity (vaal legion jewel) for one of the keystones.
Yeah I understand the aim of the build here is to be focused on SSF HC environment, even though it's used by many softcore players too.
The more technical question I have is how do we exactly calculate the "real damage increase" value from various mods, so aspect of the spider is "5% increased Damage taken" per stack, stacks to 3, then wither totem is "6% increased Chaos Damage taken" stacks to 15, and if you were using Touch of Cruelty that's another mod "Enemies Hindered by you take 10% increased Chaos Damage", do they all add together? And for the sake of it, let's say you'd have an item with a mod "Shock nearby Enemies when you Focus", baseline shock is 15% is that also additive with the rest of those mods?
And are they multiplicative with -chaos resistance mods like hunter helmet / despair? Or are they additive too?
The point is that I'm trying to figure out what is better damage value, 30% increased chaos damage from Unwaveringly Evil, or 10% increased enemy damage taken from Touch of Cruelty (even if you don't use spider and you hinder them with wither totem), the guide recommends Unwaveringly Evil which I'm using myself too, I imagine the part "Chaos Skills ignore interruption from Stuns" is not very relevant because CA is not a channelling skill, so it's mostly because 30% increased chaos damage is stronger than alternatives.
Just wondering if I'm missing anything in this line of thinking, at 1st I thought Touch of Cruelty would be bad because "10% chance to Hinder on Hit" will basically never happen with a build that doesn't rely on "hitting" stuff and dots don't count as hit, but if wither totem is a reliable source of hinder then that part is already covered and we wouldn't have to rely on some low-proc-chance mod to get Hinder to be up.
TLDR: Is 30% increased damage dealt better than 10% increased damage taken or is there another factor I'm missing in the consideration.
Simply treat "#% increased damage taken" as another "chaos DoT multiplier". Anything that says the line is additive. Wither alone gives 90%, then there's also Despair which makes it go above 100% total.
Chaos resistance reduction well... reduces enemy resistances. Im sure you know how they work.
I already covered Touch of Cruelty back when the teaser released. It's a noob trap in my opinion. Gives basically the same amount of damage while being not reliable during mapping (it can be with 3 total arrows tbh). I'm not sure if Wither Totem even triggers the bonus so... nope. To remind - "recently" updated PoB already has everything including cluster jewels.
I'll also show an example. IIRC the build has ~600% increased damage and Shaper and friends you take ~100% increased damage from Wither + Despair.
(6+1) / (1+1) = 3,5
The final number above says how much #% increased damage you need to equal 1% of increased damage taken. At 10%, it's 35% increase damage taken. Elementary math.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3053600 - My Guides
Last edited by DankawSL on Apr 6, 2020, 11:15:10 AM
So how would you guys go about using Lethal Pride and Glorious Vanity jewels? I am sorry but their allocation and effects is very confusing to me. What positive effects can their bring to the build? Thanks!
Last edited by drobecdrobny on Apr 6, 2020, 11:59:51 AM
So how would you guys go about using Lethal Pride and Glorious Vanity jewels? I am sorry but their allocation and effects is very confusing to me. What positive effects can their bring to the build? Thanks!
The issue with Lethal Pride is you can't preview the small nodes.
Keystones you can preview by looking up the names, for example ES on block builds use gem with "Kiloava" because it increases block chance, but the small nodes? You either keep buying and reselling the gems, or keep sinking divine orbs into one until you roll what you want.
Lethal Pride adds 1 mod to each notable, and that mod is random. I imagine Danka was talking about the "5% chance to gain endurance charge on kill", which is one of the many possibilities...
But there's no safe way to ensure you get that mod in radius, and you usually want it on a node you'd be already picking to not waste points.
Glorious Vanity is different. It removes original nodes and replaces it with their own, again picked randomly from "vaal" list of nodes. So you usually want it in a spot where you don't need any notables you don't wanna lose. For example common spot is pain attunement, another was point blank but that's probably better for cluster jewels nowadays.
Glorious vanity is picked because of its keystones, 2 are commonly used:
"Doryani" = Gain 20% of Maximum Life as Extra Maximum Energy Shield, basically can make any build into hybrid life / ES build, strongest on builds that can leech w/ soul tether belt, not sure how good it is on this build since we can't really leech and soul tether would be useless.
We can't really branch towards wicked ward, it's too far, but if evasion and dodge is high enough to prevent constant stopping of ES recharge, I see it being potentially decent buffer against big hits.
"Xibaqua" = 50% of Elemental Damage taken as Chaos Damage
+10% to maximum Chaos Resistance
This build requires you to cap chaos resistance and is most powerful on poison bow builds with darkscorn and optional hunter chest with physical damage taken as chaos, because then you can mitigate both physical and elemental damage with partially converting that to chaos damage and reducing it with chaos resist. It has a downside of "All Damage taken bypasses Energy Shield" so you can't do it on an ES build but that doesn't affect rangers.
Poison melee builds also sometimes use this because they get "free" chaos res if they use circle of nostalgia rings, so it has some synergy together.
Last edited by Viktranka on Apr 6, 2020, 4:22:11 PM
Sorry about the rip, seems like a very unfortunate combination of things happened there.
About the jewel - I will try lethal pride, I am not very familiar with those. For now I still think this option is pretty good and T16 mapping is walk in the park with 3 frenzies and 3 endurance charges. Strong point of those passives is that it gives you minimum +1 to charges so you always have that little defensive boost on bosses as a plus even if its not at max. Anyways it is a good option until you get your hands on those gloves and boots, but I guess you can try it out next league when you switch to trade, its really not that bad if you dont have enough currency for gloves/boots yet.
For the res and jewel slot argument, my gear currently is very high on res because I am in trade league so I have this sorted out. About the jewel socket, yes, we lose one but still can have 4 more (2 instead of small cluster jewels and 2 on the tree). For how many travel nodes we save and how much we get in return I cannot see this as a con. Especially if you think about that we get 5% dmg per each charge and we maintain 6.
I just ran a deathless Simulacrum and I was especially keeping an eye for my Crab buff to see how it holds up against being constantly in the middle of the beefy packs. I must say it is actually very impressive and I agree its BiS for this build. Sometimes the buff would be up for as long as 20 seconds, that means we really dont get hit THAT often thanks to our evasion, in addition once you lose the stacks they are back at full in 4 seconds so its really VERY useful. I am not even going to try Spider after this run. As you mentioned, once the damage is enough to clear T16 without any problem, it is more useful to focus on small defensive layers to boost survivability and I 100% agree on this. Spider just got popular for damage because softcore.
Anyways, I was just sharing the idea to people who might be interested, no hard feelings. I did not want you to include it to the guide or anything, just sharing ideas. And thanks for that Lethal Pride recommendation, I am going to have a look at it.
This rip wasn't the worst when it comes to RNG and was totally avoidable. I do have one concern which i'll test later. It's probably a false alert so i won't bother describing.
Thread of Hope indeed can be a decent budget option to get charge generation. It is decent, but suboptimal imo. I'll do the breakdown:
Unnecessary breakdown of Thread of Hope
* Assumption is that the build takes jewel socket anyway and has typical 3-mod one.
* You save total 4 points - Art of Gladiator and 3 small passives near Fury Bolt. I value Master of the Arena highly due to regen so i would still pick it.
* The damage you get from charge generation nodes are basically the same as small projectile nodes, so we can say these nodes only give generation. They also cost 2 points, so this means you save total 2 points.
* The jewel itself gives -(10-20)% resistances, so for simplicity sake lets say it gives -10%. This includes permanent buff from minimum 1 end charge. This equals to ~1 passive. The usual 3-mod jewel is SUPER efficient. On average it should give 7% max life (you want that high roll) and 20% increased damage. This equals to ~3 passives. So the final breakdown:
* 2 passive points saved.
* ~4 passives worth of stats lost.
* End and Frenzy charge generation gained.
* 4% permanent phys dmg reduction.
TL;DR You lose little bit of stats for charge generation.
Lethal Pride can give you more or less depending on the seed. The only problem it has is blocking possiblity to use Glorious Vanity (vaal legion jewel) for one of the keystones.
Yeah I understand the aim of the build here is to be focused on SSF HC environment, even though it's used by many softcore players too.
The more technical question I have is how do we exactly calculate the "real damage increase" value from various mods, so aspect of the spider is "5% increased Damage taken" per stack, stacks to 3, then wither totem is "6% increased Chaos Damage taken" stacks to 15, and if you were using Touch of Cruelty that's another mod "Enemies Hindered by you take 10% increased Chaos Damage", do they all add together? And for the sake of it, let's say you'd have an item with a mod "Shock nearby Enemies when you Focus", baseline shock is 15% is that also additive with the rest of those mods?
And are they multiplicative with -chaos resistance mods like hunter helmet / despair? Or are they additive too?
The point is that I'm trying to figure out what is better damage value, 30% increased chaos damage from Unwaveringly Evil, or 10% increased enemy damage taken from Touch of Cruelty (even if you don't use spider and you hinder them with wither totem), the guide recommends Unwaveringly Evil which I'm using myself too, I imagine the part "Chaos Skills ignore interruption from Stuns" is not very relevant because CA is not a channelling skill, so it's mostly because 30% increased chaos damage is stronger than alternatives.
Just wondering if I'm missing anything in this line of thinking, at 1st I thought Touch of Cruelty would be bad because "10% chance to Hinder on Hit" will basically never happen with a build that doesn't rely on "hitting" stuff and dots don't count as hit, but if wither totem is a reliable source of hinder then that part is already covered and we wouldn't have to rely on some low-proc-chance mod to get Hinder to be up.
TLDR: Is 30% increased damage dealt better than 10% increased damage taken or is there another factor I'm missing in the consideration.
Simply treat "#% increased damage taken" as another "chaos DoT multiplier". Anything that says the line is additive. Wither alone gives 90%, then there's also Despair which makes it go above 100% total.
Chaos resistance reduction well... reduces enemy resistances. Im sure you know how they work.
I already covered Touch of Cruelty back when the teaser released. It's a noob trap in my opinion. Gives basically the same amount of damage while being not reliable during mapping (it can be with 3 total arrows tbh). I'm not sure if Wither Totem even triggers the bonus so... nope. To remind - "recently" updated PoB already has everything including cluster jewels.
I'll also show an example. IIRC the build has ~600% increased damage and Shaper and friends you take ~100% increased damage from Wither + Despair.
(6+1) / (1+1) = 3,5
The final number above says how much #% increased damage you need to equal 1% of increased damage taken. At 10%, it's 35% increase damage taken. Elementary math.
Thank you for clarification. I checked poe.lab and only a few people use these, but it might be a good source of "correct" numbers on the jewels. I was mainly interested in them because of endurance charge generation but welp it seems kinda hard to get it if I understand it correctly. I just like atziri boots on evasion builds too much and dont really want to drop them for rare boots just because of endurance charge generation meh.
Edit: Took the advice and got these for 10c, will test but I already miss atziris xd
Also, once we can generate endurance charges, does immortal call become better or no?
Last edited by drobecdrobny on Apr 7, 2020, 9:35:56 AM
If you really like Atziri's Step and you really really want endurance charges there's another trick to unveil the recipe for +1 to minimum endurance charges and craft it on rings + neck. Then you get perma 3 endurance charges for reducing damage taken but you can't spend them on anything and you sacrifice other potential crafts on jewellery.
I already covered Touch of Cruelty back when the teaser released. It's a noob trap in my opinion. Gives basically the same amount of damage while being not reliable during mapping (it can be with 3 total arrows tbh). I'm not sure if Wither Totem even triggers the bonus so... nope.
I am not sure how it does work as well, but if you fight the Phoenix Guardian with Aspect of the Spider, Touch of Cruelty and Wither Totem up, the guy pretty much is whirlwinding without any movement anymore, because he's just too slow. So while i do agree it's not worth considering for mapping, it does have quite some impact for bossing for sure.
So, with enlighten lv 4 i can now have all malevolence, clarity and crab active atm, with the good mana regen rate, i can still go mapping as usual so im thinking to change mana flask to some other flask, im considering between witchfire and 1 more life flask with instant recovery, which one should i choose then? or maybe u could suggest another flask!, here is my flask setup right now
