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Minions generated with a set level will not increase in level when the gem enabling them levels up. If such a gem levels up while you have minions active, the change in minion level will only be reflected in newly-raised minions.
Why? :(
What about Auras? If I'm using Anger level 10 and it levels up, do I have to recast it? or if when I level up I get some aura affecting passive?
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Posted byMizzajlon Jun 18, 2014, 2:52:22 AM
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If you have two different types of spectres, 1 type supported with 5 support gems and the other type supported with 4 other support gems, you have a net 9 support gems for the cost of one item and 1 minion gem. Surely you can see how that is unfair compared to other builds?
what the hell are you talking about?
if just using 1 type (and your example) - you're suggesting be 4 spectres all with 5 support gems is lesser than some with 5 and some with 4?
what you suggest would be MORE powerful. it's backwards.
i don't think you understand my argument, at all. i'm not talking about switching gear or anything. i'm saying - if we can have 4 spectres with up to 5 support gems (if 6L) for each, why can't we decide which support gems to use for each spectre; in contrast to having all spectres use the same gems? it's the same amount of gems/skills, either way. nothing's being circumvented to gain more slots/skills.
besides, like i already stated and then killed a horse to beat it some more - the obvious result is that we'll all just use the same type of spectre (4 projectile or 4 evangelists or 4 arcers or 4...) , anyway. which then defeats the stated purpose of the change.
there's no 9 support gem crap. it's going to be max 20, either way (4 spectres * up to 5 supports).
No, I understood exactly what you are saying, rather than switching out ITEMS, you are talking about switching out gems. By switching out support gems, you are getting a net benefit of gems and versatility that isn't available to any other gem type in the game. Tell me how that's fair?
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Posted byXasraion Jun 18, 2014, 2:56:46 AM
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Minions generated with a set level will not increase in level when the gem enabling them levels up. If such a gem levels up while you have minions active, the change in minion level will only be reflected in newly-raised minions.
Why? :(
What about Auras? If I'm using Anger level 10 and it levels up, do I have to recast it? or if when I level up I get some aura affecting passive?
You missed the very important next part of that paragraph:
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Minions will respawn when you enter a new instance, so their levels will update to match the current higher level of the gem.
The game only allows for updating minion stats/auras when you cast them, either manually, or automatically by switching instances. Either one map portal is worth the updated stats, or it isn't. Your choice.
The new changes will change that for Aura's but I assume is still unable to do so for units that aren't PC's, hence the restriction still being in place for Minions.
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Posted byXasraion Jun 18, 2014, 3:03:44 AM
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If you have two different types of spectres, 1 type supported with 5 support gems and the other type supported with 4 other support gems, you have a net 9 support gems for the cost of one item and 1 minion gem. Surely you can see how that is unfair compared to other builds?
what the hell are you talking about?
if just using 1 type (and your example) - you're suggesting be 4 spectres all with 5 support gems is lesser than some with 5 and some with 4?
what you suggest would be MORE powerful. it's backwards.
i don't think you understand my argument, at all. i'm not talking about switching gear or anything. i'm saying - if we can have 4 spectres with up to 5 support gems (if 6L) for each, why can't we decide which support gems to use for each spectre; in contrast to having all spectres use the same gems? it's the same amount of gems/skills, either way. nothing's being circumvented to gain more slots/skills.
besides, like i already stated and then killed a horse to beat it some more - the obvious result is that we'll all just use the same type of spectre (4 projectile or 4 evangelists or 4 arcers or 4...) , anyway. which then defeats the stated purpose of the change.
there's no 9 support gem crap. it's going to be max 20, either way (4 spectres * up to 5 supports).
No, I understood exactly what you are saying, rather than switching out ITEMS, you are talking about switching out gems. By switching out support gems, you are getting a net benefit of gems and versatility that isn't available to any other gem type in the game. Tell me how that's fair?
May I answer?
He is talking about build diversity. The game would be more exciting if one could have various spectres instead of being forced into having only same ones. Changing gems allows for spectre diversity, simple as that.
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IGN: ___I_Fink_U_Freeky___
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Posted byKlimentiyon Jun 18, 2014, 3:05:49 AM
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Hi, I have a question and hopefully will try to contribute with something.
You said that righteous fire are intended to burn you to death, and remove the gem will not remove ur RT.
Blood rage will do that to? Actually I remove my blood rage sometimes to not get killed and recover my ES, and sometimes just to dont lose ES while dominus are talking i.e.
That is my question. Hope you can answer that.
I understood that you would like to RT burn you to death if you cant sustain it, but thing is: mostly of people that use it, are able to sustain it somehow. And people that use it situational, has a flask that dispel burn. That will continue to work right?
If thats the case I dont see a problem to you remove the gem and you lose the RF and not die. Seriously, if you can roll a flask that already does that I dont see a problem, it's more effective, less time consuming, less risk... to just use the flask. If people dont want to and just remove the gem, for god sake, that would be ok... I think.
I would understand if it affect a lot of things, I'm a developer too, so I dont know if you went a bit too deep talking about pointer and null pointer to us... If I understood right (I could be wrong), if you insist in this, snapshot will continue to exist. Because if I got it right, if you cast a 6L RT and remove it and equip a non legacy kaoms, it will be more powerful than before. Just because you cant say which support gems was linked because a null pointer? For god sake, if you cant determine just dispel the RT and if people want to use it, make they cast it again. It's more simple, honest to the people that cant snapshot anymore.
But again, maybe I got this wrong... and this is just my opinion.
I will try to give a example of what I think of it. It's the same that I cast tempest shield in one shield with 40% of block and then I swap to another shield without tempest shield with 26 block and get the 40% of block + bonus from tempest shield, because you cant determine anymore in which shield I used it and which support gems I used. I know that this could not be true and a different scenario. But it's just to give a idea, not to be too literal about it.
Last edited by swib on Jun 18, 2014, 3:18:31 AM
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Posted byswibon Jun 18, 2014, 3:09:15 AM
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May I answer?
He is talking about build diversity. The game would be more exciting if one could have various spectres instead of being forced into having only same ones. Changing gems allows for spectre diversity, simple as that.
You want a diversity of spectres? How bout some REAL diversity by, you know, summoning several different spectres rather than mucking about with support gems? Removing snapshotting is a loss of efficiency (a justifiable one), but not a loss of fun. I'd say it's actually a gain in fun by removing silly tedium. And this being a game, that's what matters. Try mixing and matching different mobs as spectres and you'll have have real diversity and all the enjoyment that brings.
Last edited by Exile009 on Jun 18, 2014, 3:12:28 AM
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Posted byExile009on Jun 18, 2014, 3:11:18 AMOn Probation
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May I answer?
He is talking about build diversity. The game would be more exciting if one could have various spectres instead of being forced into having only same ones. Changing gems allows for spectre diversity, simple as that.
Hi. First thing, I agree that this will see a decrease in the 'diversity' of peoples spectres at any given point in time. My point was whether gem juggling was fair, when compared to any other build, which cannot benefit from this technique.
Basically, for spectres, people want to have their cake and eat it too. No other build allows me to have a degen aura and an impenetrable shield (as an example) at the low cost of a single Gem in a 4/5/6L.
I don't get to have both my single target DPS double strike and my AOE double strike equipped in the same 6L item. Why should summoners get that option with spectres?
Edit: Spacing
Last edited by Xasrai on Jun 18, 2014, 3:16:42 AM
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Posted byXasraion Jun 18, 2014, 3:14:11 AM
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After reading Mark's replies about righteous fire so far, I still am unclear on a point. If I socket RF + Empower + Enhance + Increased AOE in my offhand weapon that has +1 skill gems, will RF keep all the bonuses granted from the gems (including the +1 gem level) once cast and swapped back to primary weapon? Will the spell damage buffs from RF still be increased?
Yes, under the current system. Because the gem is removed, the in-progress action can't tell anything about the gem any more - including it's current (increased) level or what supports are on it - so it's forced to use the state it was in when it was last equipped.
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I'm interested to hear about (potentially) more changes to RF's snapshotting. We've already established that activating RF then replacing it with a completely unrelated set of skill and support gems (hell, even a Kaom's) WILL STILL WORK under the (currently) planned changes.
zSavage has also posted another similar question in another thread:
snip
My assumption based on the information in this thread is that this will also WORK. And I'm also assuming that the dev team DOESN'T want that to work, but it's a much more technically challenging case to tackle.
We don't (ideally) want Righteous Fire to be able to snapshot. We do want Righteous Fire to not be something you can "turn off" by just removing the gem - it's a fundamental part of the skill's design that you must either include elements in your build that allow you to manage it, or suffer the burning until your last life point.
These two goals are somewhat at odds, as the basic non-snapshotting version on Righteous Fire would be one that did turn off when you removed it's gem.
Technical stuff:
Under the new system, the action-in-progress is notified that its skill has been modified, and passed a pointer to the new, up-to-date skill. In the case of the gem being removed, this is a null pointer, indicating the old skill been replaced with nothing rather than a new version.
Most skills react to this notification by updating their own internal skill reference to the new pointer, and deleting if it was null. Righteous Fire instead will, if passed a null pointer, keep its current pointer to the old skill. While that skill is no longer available to your character to use, it will still exist as long as the action-in-progress maintains a pointer to it.
So the RF action-in-progress in this case keeps its pointer to the obsolete skill. That skill contains all the stats of the skill gem and support gems that make it up, and also is linked to your character's stats. Since the skill is no longer tied to a gem, changes to the gem can't update the skill (including changes to what's linked to the gem). Because the skill is still linked to your character's stats, it will still update based on changes to those (gear, passives, etc).
Making it lose all the support gems would require that instead it created it's own new skill, based on the one it has, but without the supports included, and then kept a pointer to that. But creating a new skill is technically more challenging and would cause some problems.
We're currently looking into some solutions like keeping the part where it burns yourself, but removing the enemy burning and/or spell damage, so you couldn't escape burning yourself, but do need to keep the gem socketed to get actual use out of it. At this point I can't say if that's the path we'll take or not, or even if anything will change from the article before 1.2.0. As I said, I'll do my best to keep you guys up to date.
So actually this described vision of RF is still snapshot which could be in v1.2. I understand that you dont wanna turn off the skill after gem removal and curently game cant remember removed gem stats. But here's the hint to the right solution.
As you mentioned earlier, in current game version Minions counted separetly, so their buffs remembered by the game even gems/gear changed. You gonna removed this mechanic, which is right thing. But if you can make the game to remember such data, you can use this in new RF mechanic.
So you can make the game to remember applied RF gem original level and quality. This data don't used until player removes RF gem (or item where it socketed) while RF is active. In this case the game should change previous RF state (buffed by item stats and support gems) to new non-buffed RF state (applying remembered original RF gem's level and quality, just like if player moved that gem from buffing gear with links to a white item with 1 socket). So were will be NO snapshot and RF will be still active in fair state.
And also, this active-RF-gem-remembering would take much less resources, than current "remembering minions state" mechanic, which you gonna to remove.
If player puts that RF gem back into any socket - RF will change it's state according to new gear/supports effects, as you described before.
I think this is easiest solution, only few values to remember and few easy conditions to check.
Life is short - deal with it Last edited by Dissolator on Jun 18, 2014, 3:22:03 AM
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Posted byDissolatoron Jun 18, 2014, 3:20:02 AM
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May I answer?
He is talking about build diversity. The game would be more exciting if one could have various spectres instead of being forced into having only same ones. Changing gems allows for spectre diversity, simple as that.
You want a diversity of spectres? How bout some REAL diversity by, you know, summoning several different spectres rather than mucking about with support gems? Removing snapshotting is a loss of efficiency (a justifiable one), but not a loss of fun. I'd say it's actually a gain in fun by removing silly tedium. And this being a game, that's what matters. Try mixing and matching different mobs as spectres and you'll have have real diversity and all the enjoyment that brings.
It is impractical to summon various types of spectres with same support gems. Certain support gem combo is only suitable for certain group of spectres.
Example: Increased AOE + increased duration for Undying Evangelist (bubbles) -Versus- GMP + Physical Projectile Attack Damage for Tentacle Miscreations (tittie bitches)
Perhaps you need to play summoner some more to understand what is meant by "spectre diversity"
P.S. I don't even play summoner myself but I see the point some folks are trying to make. GGG stated that this fix will bring more build diversity. This may be true overall but not in particular with spectres.
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IGN: ___I_Fink_U_Freeky___
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Posted byKlimentiyon Jun 18, 2014, 3:20:03 AM
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I haven't seen it asked anywhere else in the thread, so I'm just making sure I understand the trap/totem component correctly:
A fireball trap gets the 34% multiplicative damage boost and any relevant additive boosts from trap nodes, because the first proxy level still applies.
A trapped fireball totem gets the multiplicative cast speed and damage penalties from the totem support gem, and only the 34% multiplicative boost from the trap gem, because the damage bonus on the trap gem is generic. Totem nodes do apply to the damage, but trap nodes do not.
Is this correct?
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Posted byUvneon Jun 18, 2014, 3:20:46 AM
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